Speaker 1: 00:00
Hey, it’s Colleen. Hi, it’s Kate. And it’s Megan. And we’re the three scheme queens. Join us each week as we take turns presenting a brand new conspiracy theory or mystery. From shadowy cover-ups and unexplained events to viral rabbit holes. We bring the tea, it’s piping, the facts, and the tinfoil crowns. Join the conversation, laugh along with us, and question everything. When it’s all over, we’ll tell you what we think and we’ll try to prove it to you. So grab your drink, hit the follow, and tune in every Tuesday.

Speaker: 00:53
Welcome back. Back again to the two scheme queens. Two scheme queens. Yep. I can count. We did have an episode ready uh with all three of us. We tried really hard, but we had some technical difficulties after we recorded. So Kate’s sitting the this one out. Yeah, take two. And you just get Megan and Colleen.

Speaker 2: 01:14
The benefit of the effort we put into the first attempt is that I was only listening to 10%. So this is gonna be like a new episode for me.

Speaker: 01:24
Perfect. All right, we’ll just we’re just gonna get into it because it’s kind of a long, it’s a this is a rabbit hole one.

Speaker 2: 01:28
I will say all the most the most raved about? Yeah, are the your heavy researched. Yeah. Like the Epstein ones.

Speaker: 01:35
I mean, that was a deep.

Speaker 2: 01:37
I got a lot of good commentary on Clancy. So I’m ready.

Speaker: 01:40
Okay. Before we get into it, is it time for our Drink Check Drink Check?

Speaker 2: 01:49
Should we do an EDM remix of our drink check? Comment below, guys, if you think we should.

Speaker: 01:55
When we did the first round of this episode, we had a Prohibition era drink, which is the 20s. Yep, the 20s, because we’re talking about some Prohibition gangsters today. We had a Mary Pickford cocktail, but you drink today.

Speaker 2: 02:08
Yeah, it’s a good one.

Speaker: 02:10
You know what? The first time I had this, I made this myself weeks ago and I was texting you guys, Colleen, you will love this.

Speaker 2: 02:15
Does it have a name? Or is it a you drink?

Speaker: 02:18
Well, it’s me, but it’s not very creative. It’s pretty good. So I got the strawberry acai refresher concentrate from the store. So once you get it Starbucks, but this is just the concentrate, so you can put as much or little as you want. Yeah. I mix it with Diet Lemonade. Yep. And then a shot of vodka. And I put a little extra, like our proportions, I put a little bit more of the refresher in than you. Because I know that when I get a refresher at Starbucks, way too sweet. And if I had some um club soda.

Speaker 2: 02:45
I was just gonna say if this was bubbly, I think it would be one of my top tens.

Speaker: 02:50
But I was concerned all I have is flavored seltzer, and I was concerned about too many flavors.

Speaker 2: 02:55
Maybe if it was like a lime seltzer.

Speaker: 02:56
Okay.

Speaker 2: 02:57
I could have done that, I feel like.

Speaker: 02:58
So you think this is like a 9 out of 10, but could be a 10 out of 10 for you?

Speaker 2: 03:01
It doesn’t taste like there’s any alcohol in it. I’d be chugging this.

Speaker: 03:03
And it’s like I I mean the cut the glass was half ice.

Speaker 2: 03:06
Yeah, it’s pretty good, guess.

Speaker: 03:08
Okay, so let’s get into it. This has been on the list for years. We’re talking about Alcatraz. Alcatraz. But you know, Carrie, Carrie requested this.

Speaker 2: 03:19
I don’t know if I even I No, again, guys. This is like a new episode for me. I don’t really know what the conspiracy is behind Alcatraz.

Speaker: 03:26
We’re gonna talk about Alcatraz. We’re gonna talk about the mysteries at Alcatraz, uh, again, a little history, but the second half will get a little more conspiratorial. Okay, I’m right. I’m gonna take I’m gonna take a cue from Colleen here. A cue. Picture this. You’re standing on a tiny island in the middle of San Francisco Bay. The city skyline is just over one mile away. You can see it. At night, you can see the lights. If the wind is right, you can even hear the sounds of people living their normal, free lives across the water. But between you and them is freezing water, brutal currents, and a prison specifically designed to make sure you never leave. Welcome to Alcatraz.

Speaker 2: 04:04
I’ve got a lot of questions. Is it always cold or only certain times of the year?

Speaker: 04:08
It’s always cold. About 55 degrees. From 1934 to 1962, the former military fortress became the home of some of America’s most notorious criminals, including Al Capone, George Machine Gun Kelly, and Whitey Bulger, to name a few. Wait, Whitey Bulger was all the way over in Alcatone? Yeah, but he was here. This is like before he became a narc. So God. Do you know Whitey Bulger?

Speaker 2: 04:30
Yes. Because I’ve brought him up in previous friend groups and nobody knows who he is other than New Englanders. I’m a true crime girl. They shipped him all the way over there?

Speaker: 04:37
That’s crazy. If they were too notorious, too dangerous, or too escape prone for a normal prison, they were sent to Alcatraz. And honestly, the setup was pretty solid. You had reinforced cells, armed guards, watchtowers, barbed wire, and over a mile of San Francisco Bay between you and Freedom. The government was so confident in this arrangement that Alcatraz developed a reputation as being virtually escape proof. Officially, no prisoner has ever successfully escaped Alcatraz. But on the morning of June 12th, 1962, guards discovered something very inconvenient. Oh no. Frank Morris and brothers John and Clarence Anglin were not in their cells. The men had spent months secretly digging holes through the walls of their cells using homemade tools, hiding the damage behind fake vents, building dummy heads out of soap, concrete dust, paint, and actual human hair, constructing a raft out of stolen raincoats, and essentially running a tiny arts and crafts program behind the backs of the federal government. Obsessed. Then they climbed through the walls, got onto the roof, made their way to the shoreline, launched their homemade raft into San Francisco Bay, and vanished. The FBI eventually concluded that the men most likely drowned despite the bodies never being found. And this is where we put on our little tinfoil hats. Because over the decades there have been alleged sightings, family stories, mysterious photographs, flowers reportedly sent to the Anglin brother’s mother, and even a letter allegedly written by one of the escapees claiming that all three men survived. So either three convicted criminals drowned in one of the coldest, roughest stretches of water in California, or the federal government spent years insisting that nobody could escape Alcatraz after three men had successfully escaped Alcatraz. It’s definitely the second. And that is not even the only weird thing about this island. Alcatraz has military history, infamous mobsters, bizarre escape attempts, a violent prison uprising literally called the Battle of Alcatraz, in which the Marines had to save the day, an indigenous occupation, and enough alleged paranormal activity that apparently even after the prison closed, some residents still refuse to check out. Get your drinks ready, foilheads, because today we’re going to the rock.

Speaker 2: 06:37
Insert between the Rock Johnson voice. My this is my immediate reaction. Yes, they lived. But also, can they say it’s completely inescapable if they haven’t tried to escape it themselves?

Speaker: 06:49
We got a lot of history before we get to that big escape attempt. Okay. Hold those thoughts and we’ll talk about it. But you’ve never been to Alcatraz?

Speaker 2: 06:56
No, because no, because I’ve never been West.

Speaker: 06:59
Oh, that’s right.

Speaker 2: 07:00
But eventually I will. And when I do, I know I have to get on a wait list.

Speaker: 07:06
You have to pick your ticket before you get there. It’s like going to the White House. I have been to San Francisco three times, and every time I’ve just tried to walk up and get a ticket. Yeah, no. And they’ve been sold out. Also, is there like a ferry? They take you out in a boat.

Speaker 2: 07:19
Oh. I’ll tell you what though, when I do go, I’m picking up a rock. I’m taking it home.

unknown: 07:26
Okay.

Speaker 2: 07:26
The rock from the rock?

Speaker: 07:27
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 07:28
Something about that.

Speaker: 07:29
Uh okay. So let me tell you about the background because there’s a lot of history before this even became a prison. Okay. In 1775, Spanish explorer Juan Manuel de Ayala was the first person to sail into what is now San Francisco Bay, and he discovered the island.

Speaker 3: 07:46
Wow.

Speaker: 07:46
He was the first to map it, and he named it La Isla de los Alcatrazes. The island of the Alcatraz is close. Alcatrazes. Do you know what it means from your Spanish minor? No. The Pelicans. The island of the Pelicans. Oh wait, the Alcatraz.

Speaker 2: 08:03
Wait, what’s the Taylor Swift song? Torture Poets with the Bird?

Speaker: 08:06
Al Alcatraz. The Pelicans eventually deserted the island, and for 75 years it sat uninhabited.

Speaker 2: 08:12
Wait, I’m sorry. How many pelicans are we talking about?

Speaker: 08:15
You know, I think when you look at the pictures, there’s just like bird and they just crack everywhere. They just picked this rock? Yeah, it’s a rock.

Speaker 2: 08:23
You know, I’ve never seen a pelican actually.

Speaker: 08:25
So nobody really knew to do with this island. Okay. Okay. Then in 1850, California officially became a state, and with rising tensions within the nation, as well as concern about invasion from other countries given the California gold rush, it was decided that this natural barrier at the mouth of the bay would serve as a great military fortress. It became the first military fortification on the West Coast with over 100 cannons, a citadel, and constant military patrol. It also served as the first operational lighthouse on the West Coast.

Speaker 2: 08:54
I have a question, and don’t be offended. Where’s Pearl Harbor?

Speaker: 08:58
Hawaii.

Speaker 2: 08:59
Okay. Never mind.

Speaker: 09:00
The first prisoners were kept there in 1859. It started when misbehaving enlisted men would be thrown in the guardhouse basement. What would they be doing? Just misbehaving. The first prisoner brought to Alcatraz was Private Matthew Halen, described as, quote, an insane man delivered for confinement and safe keeping. Soon military commanders were sending their deserters, escapees, thieves, and drunkards to Alcatraz. In 1861, Alcatraz is officially designated the military prison for the Department of the Pacific. So Australia. Sort of. Yeah. A much, much smaller scale. How big are we talking? 22 acres in size. Wow. Which is like the size of Rockefeller Center. Oh. And it is 1,700 feet long and just under 600 feet wide.

Speaker 2: 09:48
Now, when you put it in feet, it doesn’t seem that big.

Speaker: 09:51
So like two football fields wide and five and a half football fields long.

Speaker 2: 09:56
Okay.

Speaker: 09:57
That’s pretty big. Not for everything that ends up on this island, though.

Speaker 2: 10:00
Yeah.

Speaker: 10:00
Mike. In 1895, it housed 19 Hopi leaders who refused to send their children to American boarding schools. Wait, who are they, people? The Hopi’s, the Native Americans. They just sent them to the rock? Oh my God. By 1907, the Army acknowledged that Alcatraz was better utilized as a prison rather than a defense site. And Major Reuben Turner, a construction engineer, oversaw the project of building the prison. He tore the citadel down to the basement and had prisoners build what is now the prison. What stands now, what the prisoners lived in, was first built by military prisoners themselves, where they had to quarry the rock, mix the concrete, and lay the beams themselves.

Speaker 2: 10:40
I’m so sorry. You had the prisoners build it. There is a hundred percent that they left an escape route in there.

Speaker: 10:47
That’s how I well, that’s how I feel.

Speaker 2: 10:48
These were military prisoners, but I’m like, but like I would have been like chiseling Morse code in the brick. And then you like. I don’t really know how that helps you escape later. Go left here.

Speaker: 11:02
Oh. Okay. You know.

Speaker 2: 11:04
I’m just thinking you could make a for the for the listeners, I’m miming touching a wall. Like braille. What’s the difference between braille and written Morse code? Don’t put that in there. Okay.

Speaker: 11:13
The complex these prisoners built had four cell blocks with 600 cells, a kitchen, a dining hall, a hospital, a recreation yard, and administrative buildings. Major Turner also supervised construction of a power plant, which produced electricity and steam heat for the island. While being used for the military, it was considered minimum security. The prisoners would attend military training, remedial education, and vocational training before either returning to duty or being dishonorably discharged. Many worked as gardeners, house servants, and babysitters for the officers’ families. Babysitters? During the Great Depression, it became too costly to import food and supplies, so the prisoners were sent to Fort Leavenworth and Fort J, with the 32 worst prisoners being turned over to the Bureau of Prisons. At the same time, in the civilian world, crime was at an all-time high. Homer Cummings, the U.S. Attorney General, pushed for a high security federal institution to combat the rise of organized crime and appointed Sanford Bates as the first director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. The first warden they appointed to run Alcatraz was James A. Johnson, a former warden of San Quentin and Folsom Prison. And he had been known to actually be rather progressive and like very into rehabilitation when he ran those California prisons. That’s where you get success. Well, not at Alcatraz. He was not going to be quite so stopped. Okay. He had the existing cells reinforced. He installed metal detectors and acquired military technology. He actually had in the dining facility tear gas installed so that if they tried to riot, they could release tear gas and just put all the prisoners who were eating out. Oh my god. Uh he also enforced a rule of silence. So outside of mealtime and recreation, inmates couldn’t speak, not even in their cells. I’m gonna reiterate Morse code. Well, I’m also thinking when I read this, I was like, you know who would struggle here real bad? Me. And Kate.

Speaker 2: 13:10
Kate, I think, would really struggle. She would probably struggle more than me. I think Kate would struggle more than she. I just get a lot of unintentional sense.

Speaker: 13:16
And you like your alone time sometimes?

Speaker 2: 13:17
I do talk to myself though.

Speaker: 13:19
That’s what she that’s what she said? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:21
I talked to myself a lot, actually.

Speaker: 13:23
She said I’d be in trouble for talking to myself in my cell.

Speaker 2: 13:25
I tend to like self-narrate.

Speaker: 13:27
Okay, so most of these cells were five foot by nine foot with a small sink with cold running water, a small cot, and a toilet. D block cells were slightly larger, but the inmates were confined to the cell 24 hours a day. Oh my god. Except a weekend visit to the rec yard. And I’m thinking they got and they got two showers a week. Can you imagine this is where I’m like Kate would never survive. Stanky. If she could only go move her body one time a week. Yeah, but they can work out in their rooms. In their little five by they can do sit-ups and push-ups. I’m sure they were. How’d they get their hair cut? In the in the prison barber shop. People died in the barber shop. They cut their necks. Inmates were permitted one visit per month if approved by the warden.

Speaker 2: 14:06
By a family or something.

Speaker: 14:07
Yeah. Okay. And but apparently That’s crazy. I was surprised by that. It did say Alcatraz had like the best food of any prison. So Kate would have that going for her. I’m interested. At any given time, there were about 300 civilians living on Alcatraz in three apartment buildings, one large duplex, and four large wooden houses for senior officers. Families enjoyed their own bowling alley, small convenience store, and soda fountain shop for the younger island residents and could shop on the mainland because there were 12 prison boat runs per day.

Speaker 2: 14:34
Wait, why were there civilians?

Speaker: 14:36
The people who are working.

Speaker 2: 14:37
Oh. Um, I’m having a hard time conceptually how’s it how they fit all this. Yeah. There’s a bowling alley? Yeah. That’s crazy.

Speaker: 14:45
I think too, like the there was one documentary I watched where the there was like a girl who grew up on the island and she was talking about how she’d be they’d be playing on one side of a fence, and on the other side of the fence is the wreckyard, and the prisoners are playing.

Speaker 2: 14:56
Okay, I’m gonna just say this one thing. There’s gotta be like a young, a young gal who was romanced by a prisoner through the fence. And that probably had to do with how they escaped. I’m like, they are capable of making connections here.

Speaker: 15:10
I also feel like when I go back and forth, sometimes I read about Alcatraz, I watch these documentaries. I’m like, this doesn’t really seem so bad. I’m like, I could get out. And then sometimes the water was only 50 degrees. 55 degrees, but there were rough currents. I think it’s pretty rough. Joy athletes do this, but like I think I could do this.

Speaker 2: 15:27
I think I could survive. I think I would have a hard time. I’m a pretty good swimmer. I don’t think I’m hard to sink, Megan. I don’t think you, me or Kate. I failed swim class because I couldn’t stay under the water.

Speaker: 15:39
So on August 11th, 1934, the first federal prisoners were brought to Alcatraz. Because before that it was state prisoners, it was military. Military. And now it’s been transferred over to the Federal Bureau of Prisons. He’s like, we’re getting ready for all these bad criminals to come over. We got to reinforce things, we’re gonna make some strict rules. Okay. To be clear, the quiet rule didn’t last very long, but that’s what I figured. An initial rule. That’s crazy. Because people said it was cruel and unusual punishment. Not be able to speak. That is crazy. Or at least sing. There’s a lot of music in this story. I would have been singing. They spent a lot of time playing musical instruments. So on August 11th, 1934, the first federal prisoners were brought to Alcatraz. So you could not be sentenced to Alcatraz. You weren’t like found guilty in court and they said you go to Alcatraz. You had to be transferred here. Oh, you had to fail first. Yes. These prisoners all were too dangerous, too disruptive, or too escape prone to remain where they were.

Speaker 2: 16:34
Honestly, if you’re gonna spend your life in prison, ball out and be known for having to go to Alcatraz.

Speaker: 16:39
Okay. You’re gonna be in there anyways. Well, I think there was a lot less. A lot of them too, like they’d come here for five years, and then they would be like, Okay, you’re now safe to go back to your, you know, San Quentin, and then they could go back to their previous prison for like a little bit of time, and then they’d be released to the world. So only two people got released from Alcatraz to the world, and nobody was sentenced to Alcatraz. Name drop. Who are they? The average prison population was 260 to 270. It never reached its capacity of 336. Uh the lowest number recorded was 222, the highest was 302, and the and the inmates served an average of eight years in Alcatraz.

Speaker 2: 17:13
You know what that’s telling me? Waste of money. You built that entire thing, you know, and put in like frickin’ tear gas plumbing. Yeah. Whatever. And you’ve never even were at capacity? Waste of money.

Speaker: 17:27
Otherwise, they would complain that they were overcrowded, you know? At least be close to max. So Alcatraz operated as a federal penitentiary for 29 years from 1934 to 1963, housing more than 1,500 prisoners. And this is where the mythology of the rock really begins. So I just talked about the history of The Rock. Right. Let me tell you about some of the most famous inmates. The very first inmate, this he’s not the most famous, but just so you know. The very first. The very first inmate. Inmate number one was Frank Lucas Bolt. And he was in the U.S. Army in Panama. Mm-hmm. And he was convicted of sodomy in 1932. Oh god, he went to Alcatraz. Shipped to Alcatraz two months before the prison officially opened for being a gay man. Oh my god. Alcatraz for that is crazy. Inmate number 85 was Al Capone.

Speaker 2: 18:24
You heard of him? I know I’m supposed to know of him. Okay. I don’t know. Chicago?

Speaker: 18:31
Yeah. Okay. He was born in Brooklyn in 1899.

Speaker 2: 18:35
When did he get to Chicago?

Speaker: 18:36
At the age of 18, he was slashed in the face by the brother of a woman he was harassing at a bar, and he required 80 stitches, and he earned the nickname Scarface. In 1920, he moved to Chicago to help his friend Johnny Torillo run Linker during Prohibition.

Speaker 2: 18:53
Okay.

Speaker: 18:53
Five years later, his friend was injured in a failed assassination attempt. So Al Capone took over the gang. So he is famous for allegedly being responsible for the Valentine’s Day massacre in 1929, in which seven gangsters from rival mobs were gunned down. Whoa. In 1931, he was convicted of tax evasion charges and was sentenced to 11 years in federal prison. But he had a lot of money and a lot of resources, and he was able to sort of manipulate the prison system. So he had a pretty cush setup. And that is what got him sent to Alcatraz. Alcatraz. But also there’s a theory that he was so famous and so well known that it might have he might have been transferred just to like kind of publicize the new penitentiary and let people know about the hard stance on crime.

Speaker 1: 19:45
Okay.

Speaker: 19:45
Uh his fellow inmates didn’t really care for him because they thought he was the reason Alcatraz even existed. Existed. Yes. So he didn’t have a lot of friends. He didn’t really like to do rec time because he got he got uh attacked, uh, got assaulted multiple times. He spent his time there reading and composing music. He started a band, he played the banjo, and during wreck time, he had permission to practice the banjo in the shower so that he didn’t have to go out and be with the people and you know face injury. Not the shower banjo. The shower banjo and machine gun Kelly, who we’re gonna talk about in a moment. Who is not the artist that I know? No. Uh he was also in this band that he created. He played the drums. This is true. Yeah. That’s kind of crazy.

Speaker 2: 20:32
So then I hear this, and I’m like, how bad could this prison have been if they’re playing the banjo and the drums and also I’m like, you mean the two like most evil, like real well, again, I don’t really know machine really, but you tell me that some of like the most infamous criminals are just like allowed to be friends in a band. Yeah. This was not I could have escaped this place.

Speaker: 20:51
Uh Al Capone’s crazy. Here’s a fun fact. I did not know that maybe the rest of the world knows. Probably not you, but maybe our listeners already know.

Speaker 2: 20:58
I know 10% of everything.

Speaker: 20:59
Al Capone had untreated syphilis, and he actually had declining mental health. Uh his like mental status was declining, leading to confusion, disorientation. And I read that he had the mental capacity of like a 12-year-old child. So afterwards the end of his life, or like yes, towards the end of his time here at Alcatraz. So he ended up getting transferred off the rock after four years. He did some time in California, and then he was released early before dying at his home in Florida in 1947. Wow. Um How did he still have a home at the end? Well, he had a lot of money. Okay. He had family.

Speaker 2: 21:35
Sorry. But just to understand, like prison. I like if you own a house and you go to prison, I just kind of assumed like they took your house. Why would they take your house? Because you’re in prison. I don’t know why, actually.

Speaker: 21:50
Like how you pay in taxes. I feel like your money is still your money. Then we had Robert Stroud, known as the birdman of Alcatraz. Inmate number 594. The creepy birdman. The birdman. Not to be confused with our birdman. I think we have to change his name. Yeah, Drew’s now always Drogal. No more Birdman. Or bird guy.

Speaker 2: 22:12
No, Droogal’s better, actually.

Speaker: 22:14
Droogal. The Birdman of Alcatraz was born in Seattle in 1890, and he ran away from his abusive father as a teenager before working as a pimp in Alaska. In 1909, he was convicted of manslaughter after killing a bartender. He was imprisoned in McNeil Island in Puget Sound and then Leavenworth in Kansas, where he fatally stabbed a prison guard.

Speaker 2: 22:33
Yep.

Speaker: 22:34
He was sentenced to death for first degree murder, but his mother pled for clemency, and Woodrow Wilson commuted the death sentence to life in prison. But there were definitely like some weird mommy dynamics here because she was like fighting for him and vouching for him. And then he ended up marrying a woman, which spoiler, he’s a homosexual. So he married this woman primarily because he heard that if you were married, you couldn’t be transferred and he didn’t want to be transferred out of the prison. So his mom didn’t wasn’t a fan of his bride. Well, obviously. He was really mad about this whole thing. So she actually stopped advocating for him and she began arguing against parole for him. Okay. This sounds like he was a brat. Yeah. During well, he’s he’s sort of crazy. Like literally. During his time at Leavenworth, he became interested in birds and he wrote two books about canaries and their diseases.

Speaker 2: 23:22
I kind of want to read them.

Speaker: 23:23
And initially, the prison was really behind this because it’s like look rehab. Yeah. We can this guy can be like the poster child for like productivity in prison, right? But then they found out he was smuggling contraband in the bird cages and using supplies provided to him for his experiments to create a still for homebrew.

Speaker 2: 23:44
Wait, I’m just your first thought process is of trying to get things into the prison and it’s like bird cages.

Speaker: 23:51
Yeah, I mean, I’m sure he liked the birds, but also it was like That’s crazy. If they’re gonna bring me stuff. That’s crazy. Uh in 1942, he was transferred to Alcatraz. They came in, they gave him 10 minutes’ notice, he said, pack your bags, you should go in Alcatraz. Okay. And he spent six years in segregation in D Block and then 11 years in the prison hospital before being transferred to the medical center for federal prisoners in Springfield, Missouri, where he died on November 21st, 1963. And I was like, what was this man doing in the medical in the hospital? Because I knew you guys were gonna want to know. Yeah. Can I guess? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:29
Severe constipation. For 11 years he had severe constipation. Oh, oh, okay, hold on. I don’t think I understood that you meant he was in Alcatraz.

Speaker: 24:38
He was homed, housed in the hospital in Alcatraz for 11 years, and then he got transferred to the Medical Center for Federal Prisoners in Missouri, and then he died of natural causes. But in this 11-year period, what made him go there?

Speaker 2: 24:53
Hold on, I’m gonna get a psych.

Speaker: 24:54
It’s what it sounds like. It sounds like mostly mental illness. It sounds like that he was really high risk for violence. And so part of being in the hospital was just to like keep him, you know, contained and separated. He was diagnosed as a psychopath with an IQ of 116 while he was at Alcatraz, but he is not the most intelligent of our prisoners we’re gonna talk about. Alvin Karpis was a gang leader who spent more time at Alcatraz than any other inmate. He was there for 26 years. He wrote a book and he said that Robert Stroud, quote, had a definite mental quirk. His behavior and statements in isolation convinced me he was dangerous. I have vivid memories of his lanky form and his unusually long arms hanging low in ape-like fashion, and profanities and threats he uttered against the guards and their families rushed to mind. His wild exclamations on how if he were released, he would grab little boys or girls off the street, eat them up, and then kill them. God. Yeah, you can’t let that man on the street. But just to clarify, while he is known as the Birdman of Alcatraz, he never had birds at Alcatraz, because when they transferred him, they were like, We’re not playing this game. You’ve lost your privileges. He wrote And that’s why you went crazy. Maybe. Hey, he wrote some more. It sounds like he was crazy from the beginning.

Speaker 2: 26:05
Maybe he knew that the birds work for the bourgeoisie. And he was talking to them.

Speaker: 26:09
Maybe.

Speaker 2: 26:10
You know? Yeah.

Speaker: 26:11
You know what I mean? Maybe birds aren’t real? I don’t know. I think he knew birds are real. So that was him. We’re gonna talk about him in a minute because he is a really terrible guy and again considered a psychopath, but he does end up being the hero later in one of our bird ways. Yep.

Speaker 2: 26:28
Did you read did you watch that documentary Crazy Not Insane or Insane Not Crazy? Yes. We probably had trauma.

Speaker: 26:35
George Machine Gun Kelly was inmate number 117. Did you know that there was a machine gun Kelly before Machine Gun Kelly? Nope.

Speaker 2: 26:43
Slight disclaimer: I’ve got a good friend of mine who loves Machine Gun Kelly. Juliana, if you’re listening to this, my good friend Jay. Uh-huh. Um, this one’s for you.

Speaker: 26:51
She likes him?

Speaker 2: 26:52
Loves him. Not the criminal, the artist.

Speaker: 26:56
This machine gun Kelly was born in Memphis in 1895. During the Prohibition Area, he committed small crimes and was primarily a bootlegger. He served a brief suit at Leavenworth for smuggling liquor, but was released for good behavior and married Catherine Thorne, an experienced criminal who purchased him a machine gun and insisted he use it for target practice. So I’m gonna I ship them. Well, Catherine Thorne seems to be like a bad influence. She’s like, here’s honey. Here you go, honey. She made his name sake. Yeah, it will that’s romance. He didn’t really want the gun, but she was like, you know, use the gun, practice. And she would go around and tell everyone, like, my my husband is like a big gangster. But it sounds like he really wasn’t? No, she was just all talk. Together embarrassing. But together they would kidnap rich people and collect ransoms.

Speaker 2: 27:40
Oh my god, Megan. How did you not think I wasn’t gonna love him?

Speaker: 27:43
This is very common in this period. I love him. Okay. In 1933, he kidnapped oil tycoon Charles Urschel, and that was his undoing. That’s kind of what he got busted for. But he was quiet, he was considered a model inmate. He was at Alcatraz for 17 years, and actually his fellow inmates nicknamed him Pop Gun Kelly because they were like, he is all talk and not much of a criminal, not much of a scary criminal. So they weren’t gonna call him Machine Gun Kelly, they would call him Pop Gun Kelly.

Speaker 2: 28:09
They were gonna call him Pop Gun, and if you’re like that’s grandpop.

Speaker: 28:12
No, like pop gun, like the gun a kid played with back in the day. Oh, okay. He, as I said, was the drummer in Al Capone’s band. That’s really cute. Getting cuter. In 1951, he was transferred back to Leavenworth, where he died of a heart attack a few years later. So those are some of the the big names. There were bank robbers, train robbers, kidnappers, gangsters charged with racketeering, organized crime, and espionage. But ironically, the men Alcatraz is most famous for today, maybe three prisoners whose entire claim to fame is that nobody knows what happened to them. We’re gonna talk, I’m gonna kinda do kind of do one section here. I’m gonna talk about the escapes and the deaths, because unfortunately, most of the escape attempts resulted in death.

Speaker 1: 28:50
Okay.

Speaker: 28:50
During the 29 years operated as a federal penitentiary, 39 prisoners were involved in 14 separate escape attempts. Of these, 23 were caught, six were shot and killed, and four were confirmed drowned. Officially, nobody was successful. At the same time, in this 29-year period, there were 28 deaths. So eight inmates were murdered by other prisoners, five prisoners committed suicide, 15 inmates died of natural death, three guards were killed by inmates, and six inmates were shot, and four inmates were confirmed to have drowned during escape attempts. So again, let’s talk about some of the deaths at the rock. I’m not gonna go through all of the deaths and all of the escapes. I did read about I researched every death and every escape. I don’t want to just read them to you, so I’m just giving you the highlights.

Speaker 2: 29:33
Do you have the total numbers?

Speaker: 29:34
I gave them to you.

Speaker 2: 29:35
Oh, yes, you did.

Speaker: 29:36
Okay. Uh in April 1936, Joe Bowers was on garbage detail. He was burning trash in the incinerator, so Oh, he fell in. We already had bent burn pits. No.

Speaker 2: 29:46
He did not.

Speaker: 29:47
I was gonna ask if they buried them. No, because well, you just jumped so many times. They had a morgue, but they didn’t do autopsies. They just put him in the fridge and then they shipped him on a boat over to San Francisco, and then they would get an autopsy there. That’s crazy. So he climbed a chain link fence and was told to stop by guards, but refused to comply. He was shot and fell 50 to 100 feet before succumbing to his death. So this was the first inmate to die at Alcatraz. Um in an escape. But it’s unclear if it was really an escape because he had suicidal ideations and a history of severe self-harm. So the theories are either he was trying to escape and he was killed. It was suicide by guard, or some think he was just trying to look at the birds.

Speaker 2: 30:29
I don’t know. Well, was he well? He doesn’t sound he doesn’t sound well. Sounds like he has some mental health freedom. I’m sure it’s a little bit of all of them. I’m gonna go look at the birds because the birds are talking to me and it’s really like Jesus and he wants to go die. Okay. I’m just thinking like what was on the other side of the fence?

Speaker: 30:47
The water.

unknown: 30:50
Okay.

Speaker: 30:51
Freedom. I don’t know what he was doing. Okay. Next, in May 1938, three inmates working in the woodworking shop, James Limerick, Jimmy Lucas, and Rufus Franklin, attacked an unarmed officer, Royal Klein, with a hammer, causing his death. I just got why are we letting these prisoners have a wood shop? They then climbed the roof in an attempt to disarm the officer in the guard tower. Two of the inmates were shot with Limerick dying. Lucas and Franklin received life sentences. The following year, five inmates escaped from the isolation unit by sighing through iron cell bars and bending window bars. They were encountered at the water’s edge, where three surrendered and the other two were shot. Arthur Barker, known as Doc, he died from his injuries. Uh and this is interesting because the guard who shot and killed the escaping prisoner, Arthur Doc Barker, was himself killed eight years later during another prison escape attempt. In this instance, one of the prisoners is killed. Okay. But this story doesn’t end here. The reason I share this story also is because apparently one of the five inmates who was part of this conspiracy, this plan to escape, was Rufus McCain. And they get all the way to the water’s edge, and he’s like, By the way, I don’t know how to swim. So it feels a little late to be figuring this out, honestly. Um and he was like, What are you gonna do? Well, he’s like, Since I don’t know how to swim, that raft needs to be a little better reinforced for me. So we need to go get some more lumber to to sturdy up this raft. And that’s when they got busted. All this dilly-dallying.

Speaker 2: 32:25
Oh, the way I would have just okay, hold on.

Speaker: 32:27
Left him?

Speaker 2: 32:27
No, no, no. Let me start over. Um, nobody judged me for this. But if I was escaping for my life, like I would have been like, you go ahead, Rufus. He turns his back to me. I’m taking a rock and I’m boom on the head, and I’m taking the raft and I’m leaving. Yeah. That’s crazy. I would have lost my mind.

Speaker: 32:47
Yeah, just also maybe these are like things you should have figured out.

Speaker 2: 32:50
Yeah, I’m sorry. You know what? You know why they you know why they failed? It was men. If this was an island of female prisoners, and that’s why we don’t have any inescapable female prisons. Okay. Because we’d all win.

Speaker: 33:02
One of the other escapees, Henry Young, ended up blaming Rifus McCain for like the whole debacle. As one would. Yeah. So he stole two knives from his prison job the following year and stabbed McCain to death.

Speaker 2: 33:15
Yeah.

Speaker: 33:15
There’s actually a movie made about this uh called Murder in the First, starring Kevin Bacon. In the movie, they portray that uh Henry Young was in isolation for three years, and then when he got out, he promptly murdered Rufus McCain.

Speaker 2: 33:29
Yeah.

Speaker: 33:30
In real life, he spent a coup they all spent a couple months in segregation after the escape attempt, and it was over a year between when he got out of segregation and when he killed McCain. So not accurate, but the point is that he had a hearing and he was found not guilty of manslaughter because he argued to the jurors that the solitary confinement was responsible for his actions. A lot of these people, in April of 1942, four prisoners took two officers hostage and were able to climb out a window and escape to the water’s edge. Fred Hunter was apprehended before hitting the water. Harold Bruss was pulled from the ocean. James Borman was shot while swimming away and sank below the water, but his body was never recovered. Floyd Hamilton was presumed drowned, but after hiding out in a small shoreline cave for two days, he turned himself in. In 1942, Cecil Snow, who Cecil Snow just makes me think he might be from like Hunger Games. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:20
President Snow.

Speaker: 34:21
Yeah, that’s I think that’s what I’m hearing. Cecil just seems like a Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:24
Well, what’s his name? Isn’t his name Cornelius Snow?

Speaker: 34:26
Oh, well, very close. Thank you. Because Kate looked at me like I was crazy and said, Hey, no, Cornelius Snow. That’s like Cecil Snow should be from from Game of Thrones.

Speaker 2: 34:35
She said that? Yes. She read the ballad of songbirds or whatever. Cornelius Snow? Yeah, thank you for having my back.

Speaker: 34:44
Cecil Snow sounds like Hunger Games.

Speaker 2: 34:46
Hunger Games. That’s crazy.

Speaker: 34:47
He followed her up. He stabbed fellow inmate Maurice Herring. In July of 1942, Herring was overheard issuing threats to Cecil Snow, threatening to kill him at work. On July 15th, Herring attacked Cecil Snow in the shower, and apparently at the upper hand, Snow pulled a knife, stabbed Herring in the chest and thigh, severing his femoral artery. Herring staggered and climbed up the stairs where he collapsed. He was pronounced dead less than a half an hour later. But it sounds like in general, he attacked Snow. Snow was defending himself, and actually seven inmates testified on Snow’s behalf. Uh, and he was acquitted of murder as well. But the problem is when these people are when these people are acquitted, like this guy, when he was acquitted, he lost 1700 days of good time and spent three years in segregation because he’s being punished by the prison even though he was found not guilty by a jury.

Speaker 2: 35:36
The only thing I could think about during that shower story is the guy who is showering pulled a knife. Where was the knife? Who had the knife? The guy who was on.

Speaker: 35:47
He was attacked. And I assume the other guy like got his knife out of his hand.

Speaker 2: 35:50
No, I’m just picturing like this man showering. He’s got that thing on him all the time, and it’s just a knife in his butt.

Speaker: 35:56
Okay. It gets weirder than that. We’re about to have a naked man. A naked man. In hold on, hold on. So in 1945, Ralph Green killed Claude Branch by hitting him with a metal stand in the prison barber shop. It took him nearly 48 hours to die, but he denied any altercation had taken place. They kept being like, What happened? Who did this? And he’d be like, Nothing happened, as he’s like dying. That’s great. That’s what I would do. He’s got the code, you know. That’s so funny. After Branch’s murder, inmates defended his killer by claiming that Branch was a homosexual. There’s just a lot of homophobia at Elstraz. I didn’t know this. This is really sad. And regularly tried to, well, I mean, this guy might not have been so sad because they’re claiming he regularly tried to rape fellow inmates and he had tried to rape Ralph Green.

Speaker 2: 36:40
Oh.

Speaker: 36:41
So is the case of Takesy Baxus. Yes. That’s what these other cases. The jury found Green not guilty, but the prison staff sent him to isolation for four and a half years. Oh my God. This brings us to the Battle of Alcatraz now. This is this is one of battle? Yep. This is one of the two biggest escape attempts. Okay. Battle of Alcatraz on May 2nd, 1946. This is kind of complicated. This was a this was like a big conspiracy here, okay? I’m gonna lock in. So inmate Bernard Coy. Bernie. Bernie is sweeping C block, and he has this guard who’s, you know, letter C. Yeah. Okay. And Marvin Hubbard, who’s locked up, this fellow inmate, he starts distracting the guard. And while Hubbard and the guard were talking, Bernie overpowered the guard from behind, and then he freed two other inmates, Joseph Kretzer and Clarence Carnes. They had bar spreaders that they had built from toilet parts, and Coy was the smallest. So he stripped down, greased his body up, and slid through the bars before climbing the West Gun Gallery and overtaking another guard from behind. He seized a gun, rifle, and gas grenades.

Speaker 2: 38:00
At what point did he ungrease?

Speaker: 38:02
I know I’m thinking of that too, like this electrication, and he’s just like a greasy slipping on the floor. Like Alcatraz had the shiniest floors of any prison. So yeah, he’d probably just be sliding all over. Easy. So that’s what did he grease with?

Speaker 2: 38:15
And like, where did he maybe hair, hair? I bet they were allowed to have like hair grease, you know, fine other times.

Speaker: 38:22
Yeah. He seized a gun rifle and gas grenades and passed them down the tower to the others. The inmates then moved into D block where they seized another guard and used his keys to release 12 inmates, including their final two co-conspirators, Sam Shockley and Marin Thomas. So within five minutes, six prisoners had seized control, overpowering nine guards and locking them into two cells.

Speaker 2: 38:43
That’s crazy.

Speaker: 38:44
Their plan was to use them as hostages. They were gonna exit through the recreation door, get in a boat, like keep these guards with them, and then once they made it out a safe distance from gunfire, they would push the guards over the edge, right? But that first guard that started this whole thing, he was watching Bernie sweep. He had while they while they’re locking these guards up into two cells, he takes the key that exits the building off his key ring and hides it behind the toilet. I would not have been that smart. So now they’re screwed because they have no way to get outdoor out of the city. There’s only one key. Then it got real violent. Okay. So Bernard Coy shot a watchtower guard. The gunfire caused the associate warden to rush toward the block. He was also shot by Coy. So then Kretzer freaked out. He grabbed a gun and he pointed it in the cell at the officers, but he was panicked and he like couldn’t pull the trigger. Shockley and Thompson stood over his shoulder. They goaded him into firing, and he ended up hitting five of the nine officers, including Miller, the one who started this and the one who hid the key.

Speaker 2: 39:57
Oh.

Speaker: 39:57
Miller ends up dying from his injuries. Wow. Then the warden called in the Marines now, because now it’s like this is this is getting real. During the initial siege, the Marines and the guards, they go in. One of the officers, Officer Sites, who was the hero from the previous escape, who shot the man who was trying to leave. He gets shot and he dies. Wow. We think by friendly fire. That’s sad. During a second attempt, a guard was shot in the shoulder, causing retreat, and the Marines to start throwing smoke bombs. They’re like, we can’t risk any more people. They go up on the roof, they start dropping smoke bombs, they’re dropping grenades, uh, mortars from the roof into the prison. And so all these people are in harm’s way. But we have a surprise hero. Robert Stroud, the birdman of Alcatraz, is still alive. Climbed over a railing and dropped into the cell block and closed steel doors to protect innocent inmates from explosions. He’d have looked at a guard and said, There are no guns down here, and pointed to the corridor where some of the conspirators had run. So he is considered to be kind of responsible for getting the guards to end this.

Speaker 2: 41:07
Well, by now he’s been here so long, like this is his home, right?

Speaker: 41:11
They’re like, they’re probably like, you know what, this was fun for a minute, but now get it back together. Yeah. Now things like when’s this gonna end? We got bombs going off. I know. Crazy. Coy, Kretzer, and Hubbard were found dead. Coy was wearing a guard’s uniform as though he intended to blend in and sneak away. In addition to the three inmate and two guard deaths, over 18 officers and one inmate were injured. Sam Shockley and Miran Thompson received the death penalty for the murder of the guards, and they were executed at San Quentin. 19-year-old Clarence Carnes was sentenced to a second life sentence, but he paroled, he died of AIDS at the age of 61. But the the jail remains riddled with gunshots. You can see evidence of all this violence when you go to it.

Speaker 2: 41:51
Man, all that, and you didn’t even get off the rock.

Speaker: 41:56
In 1951, Freddie Lee Thomas killed Joseph Barsock in the barber shop. He did what in the barbershop? Where they get their haircut, right? Oh, it’s like an episode of Clue. So Barsock. It’s a candlestick in the barbershop. Barsock was a customer. He’s at the barber chair. The inmate barber is Freddie Lee Thomas. They are speaking in low tones, and then an argument erupted. Thomas attacked him with roughly seven-inch barber shears. How are why are they allowed to have those? A newly hired guard tried to pull them apart. He was cut himself. Barsock died on the floor. According to the guard, Thomas bent down, kissed Barsock, and told him he loved him. Oh my bet they were lovers. Thomas turned himself in. He said, quote, we were just arguing. It didn’t amount to anything, end quote. So maybe a little crazy. Were they lovers? I don’t know. Oh, imagine if we kissed in the prison break. You know, like, oh, I would read that romance. In 1957, Ronald Simcox murdered Edward Govin in the shower. These were two crime partners. Um, partners. Govin had spent two years in segregation. Simcocks had told guards he was going to kill Govin when he got out of Seg. They actually interviewed a witness here. And when you go to the National Park Service, there’s like some oral histories from people who witnessed these different events. And one of them said, When you come out of D block, the first place you come is the shower to get your mattress and stuff to take back to your cell. Because they take your mattress during the day, you get it at night in D block. We’re going to talk about D block finally. Because you have to be as like isolated and whatever. So you don’t want to be comfortable. Just like, this is like a federal prison, and they’re allowed to have barber shears. They got under the shower. The Simcox came out and bingo and hit him three or four times. They tried Simcox for murder over in San Francisco and he got acquitted. Self-defense. That’s unbelievable. They had three guards. Three guards were eyewitness, and he still beat it on self defense. The kid was stark naked, so how’s he gonna have a weapon?

Speaker 2: 43:48
I’m wondering if they had connections on the jury.

Speaker: 43:50
Okay, and then the last one I’ll get into is the most famous story. The most famous escape in Alcatraz’s history was the brainchild of Alan West, Frank Morris, and brothers John and Clarence Englin in 1962. So Alan West was born in New York City. He had over 20 arrests for Larcy and car theft with multiple escape attempts in the past. And he had was sent to Alcatraz twice for repeated escape attempts. He may or may not there’s a lot of questions. A lot of people were incarcerated in the same prison, so they don’t know if they knew each other before Alcatraz or not. That’s Alan West. And we have Frank Morris. He was born in DC to a runaway. He spent most of his childhood in an orphanage or foster home. At age six, he began stealing change from his teachers and fellow classmates. His first arrest was at the age of 13. His poor kid. He had a criminal record that included grand larceny, auto theft, armed robbery, and narcotics. He had an IQ of 133, so smarter than Birdman. Said he’s like in the top 2% of all prisoners for intelligence. He had previously escaped from Louisiana State Penitentiary in 1955, but he was arrested a year later while committing another burglary, and he ended up sent to Alcatraz in 1960. He was inmate number 1441. And then we have the brothers John Anglin and Clarence Anglin. Twins. Irish twins. Oh a year apart. Yep. To the day? Pretty close. Wow. To like the same month. Oh. Born into a family of 13 children in Georgia. Yep. They were skilled swimmers because they also were worked as seasonal workers on a family farm in Michigan and they would swim in Lake Michigan. They swam in Florida. And their siblings say they would swim, there’d be like ice chips on top of Lake Michigan, and they were still swimming. So like used to swimming in cold environments, you know? Yeah. They had a history of theft and robbed banks, but uh the documentaries all make it clear that like they were pretty harmless as far as like violence goes. They had only used a weapon for one bank robbery, and it was a toy gun. And they actually stopped the robbery to provide medical care to one of the bank employees who was like having a panic attack. Do you have a picture of these men? I think they could get it, guys. After repeated attempts to escape Florida State Prison, Leavenworth, and then Atlanta Federal Penitentiary, they were shipped to Alcatraz in 1960 and 1961 as inmates 1478 and 1485. And this is interesting because the previous warden had sent a message and said, do not let these brothers have cells next to each other. I was just gonna say, I don’t think I would I would separate siblings. So apparently they separated them and then they were so well behaved that as a reward they let them sell next to each other. But that’s crazy. But they regret that. Yeah, that’s a little crazy. There’s a theory that there was prison employees were in on this, you know. For months, the men planned their escape. In the back of each cell was a six by nine inch graded vent. One of them, Alan, was like, hey, this concrete is kind of crumbly and figured out that they could probably dig their way out around the vent. Well, you know what?

Speaker 2: 46:46
It’s probably cheap because the government built it. So it’s probably, you know, poor quality.

Speaker: 46:50
Well, I think also the salt, we get you, the salty air was not good for the building. I like mine against the government. Okay. They used a vacuum cleaner motor to build a homemade drill, as well as spoons and discarded saw blades to widen their ventilation ducts and created false walls out of cardboard. So they painted these pieces of cardboard and they would set them in front of their holes, and from outside the cell, you couldn’t tell that they had been they were digging into this vent.

Speaker 2: 47:15
I’m just thinking, what a waste of intelligence. Yeah. Like we could have been using these men to come up with something else. And like they’re you like this is crazy.

Speaker: 47:25
It’s genius, and this is what you’re using your genius for. There’s they start digging through the through their vents, and Clarence made it through. He was the first. So he did some recon and he discovered that the vent leads up to the top level of the cell block, and up there there’s like a roof vent, but it’s bolted shut. So he’s like, okay, we got to figure out how to get through this roof vent. But this area, you can be seen by a guard. It’s sort of like in this upper walkway, what um, like an upper like catwalk. Okay. And so he’s like, we need to figure out how to get privacy up here so we can work on opening this vent. Alan West was assigned to paint the ceiling of the building and clean up any debris up there on that catwalk. So he just somehow got assigned to that. One day he just sweeps all this debris off the edge, and then the guards are like, What the heck? You’re making such a mess. And so he goes, Well, if you gave me some drop cloths, I could put them up there, we could hang them, and then it would contain my mess. Oh my God, this guy is really so smart. So he gets it. They line up these curtains out of drop cloths so no one can see the catwalks, and now they can make their own little workshop where they prep for their escape and work on getting out of that roof though.

Speaker 2: 48:40
This is like when I do crossword puzzles with smart people.

Speaker: 48:42
Oh my god.

Speaker 2: 48:43
Wish I thought of that.

Speaker: 48:44
Then they used a file. Well, you don’t need to think of this because you’re in like, I wish I did. They used a file to file away at the bolts. They read an article in Popular Mechanics. How are they getting articles? They’ve got magazine access. This is crazy. About how to make a life vest out of a raincoat. And there are, this is San Francisco. There are hundreds of raincoats available for the inmates to use while doing their jobs.

Speaker 2: 49:11
This is crazy.

Speaker: 49:12
And there is no system to check in or check out these raincoats. So they were able to collect dozens of raincoats from other inmates.

Speaker 2: 49:18
Well, and now I want to know how to make a life jacket.

Speaker: 49:20
And then, well, it’s pretty intense because then in their in their little workshop, they made a six foot by 14 foot life raft out of raincoats, and they made life vests out of the raincoats, and these were pretty intense. They were sealed with liquid plastic. They then heated them from the steam pipes to melt the pot, like melt the seams. These people survived. And then hand stitched. These people survived. They also made paddles from plywood. So while they’re doing this work at night, though, how are they not getting caught when the guards do their walk, right? How are they like their drop cloths? Why aren’t you at no, but like why aren’t you in your cell? Oh yeah. Well, would they create a dummy or something? They made paper mache heads. These are my kind of people. They hold on. That’s crazy. Spit. Soap, toothpaste, concrete, dust, and toilet paper to make these heads. Then they said that they were painting portraits of their girlfriends and they needed skin color paint so they could get the skin right.

Speaker 2: 50:15
This is crazy. And they just gave them the paint.

Speaker: 50:17
Yeah. And they used to- They can’t have requests. That’s why sometimes like this, I’m like, was Alcatraz so bad? They had arts calves. That looks crazy. Uh and they used hair clippings from the barber shop. One of them worked at the barber shop and he collected hair clippings in the cuff of his pants. I’m sorry. This is literally, these people are so but then they glued that onto the dummy head so it had realistic hair. They would put that, they’d put the head on the pillows, pull the blankets up, put some clothes underneath the blanket. And then if people were just walking by, it looked like someone was asleep.

Speaker 2: 50:46
Um there’s no way these people did not survive.

Speaker: 50:50
They thought of everything. On the night of June 11th, 1962, they left their cells at lights out, which was 9:30 p.m. Also, how did none of the other prisoners catch them doing this? Well, apparently the other prisoners did know because when they were found missing and the alarms were alerted, apparently they all cheered.

Speaker 2: 51:08
So everybody knew.

Speaker: 51:09
I mean, they were giving them rain codes. How’d they get them to keep the secret? Prisoners have a code. So on the night of June 11th, 1962, they left their cells at Lights Out, which was 9 30 p.m., which would give them a 10-hour head start. Alan West claimed, now we’re gonna this was the guy whose idea this was originally. The guy who was like the genius. Well, no, not the 133 guy, but he was like, look at the crumbly he claimed that he had used cement to reinforce the crumbling concrete around his vent and was unable to remove the grill. So he actually got left behind. And now there’s some questions about like maybe either like you did all this genius work and then you glued yourself in. So like, did he really was he maybe sabotaged? Did the other guys not want him with him? Oh yeah. Was he did he chicken out? Well, what did he say? He made the cement to he was like reinforcing the concrete around his vent, and it caused the grill to glue. It he like glued himself back together pretty much. He did end up getting out like several hours later, and he went up and he popped his head up, and he looked at the ocean and he goes, nah, man, not doing it, and he went back to his room. That’s crazy. But we know a lot about this planning from him because he got left behind and he was happy to brag about escape. So, really, the people who escaped, it’s just Morris and the Anglin brothers. So they went through the vents, they climbed up to their workshop where they grabbed their supplies and exited through the roof vent. They had these accordions that they would play, these like musical instruments. They would play when they were digging so that people couldn’t hear the digging. And they used like the the the middle of the piece. They used it as like they as like a um air pump, if you will, to inflate their lifeboats.

Speaker 2: 52:53
Right, like my god, that’s so funny.

Speaker: 52:56
They were never seen again. They lived. An extensive 10-day land, sea, and air search took place. A paddle, two life vests, and um package with the names, addresses, and photos of the Anglin brothers’ friends were discovered, but that was it.

Speaker 2: 53:09
How long did it take for people to notice they were gone?

Speaker: 53:11
About 10 hours. And in the morning they walked by and they said everyone wake up. Someone tried to poke one of the heads to be like, dude, you’re not waking up, and the head rolled off and they sounded their list.

Speaker 2: 53:20
How sick were these heads?

Speaker: 53:21
Well, let me tell you what the plan was, according to Alan West. The plan was to paddle from Alcatraz to Angel Island, which is about two miles away. And they had studied the tides and they knew that if they hit the tides at the right time, they would have relatively calm currents to take them there. Once arriving at Angel Island, they would rest and recover before moving to the other side of the island, where they would cross the narrow raccoon strait that separates Angel Island from Marin County. There they would steal civilian clothes from a store, steal a car, and get far away from San Francisco. So the FBI investigated this for 17 years. Well that they closed it and said they’re presumed dead. We’re done. But they passed off to the U.S. Marshals, and the U.S. Marshals are continued continuing to investigate, and they said they will not close the file until the youngest one is 99 years old. Here are kind of the so you think they survived.

Speaker 2: 54:11
Okay, well, they found two.

Speaker: 54:13
How many life jackets did they make? Well, multiple, but I’m gonna here’s what I think about that. The FBI argues that San Francisco Bay was cold with strong currents capable of carrying them toward the Golden Gate and Pacific. The FBI believed conditions made survival unlikely, although it really was not a poor condition night. People purposefully swim this. They do now, triath a lot, like real athletes. People are like, these guys weren’t getting wrecked, they were doing push-ups and sit-ups. I guess they were doing a lot of digging. They had to pull themselves up a long way to climb. And they were apparently Al Capone told them, he says he told them to they needed to acclimate so they should like get towels and put cold water on them and like land or them and acclimate, like so you’re not like shocked for them. In 1962, there was this other escape I didn’t tell you about, uh, John Paul Scott. He actually m escaped and he made the 2.7 mile swim before being discovered by teenagers on the rocks under the Golden Gate Bridge. So he successfully escaped. Guy did it. Yeah, he got treated for hypothermia and got back to Alcatraz, but they’re like, this is proof it is possible for somebody to survive this swim.

Speaker 2: 55:22
I can only see them successfully surviving if there’s somebody on the coast waiting for them.

Speaker: 55:28
Well, I’m so happy you mentioned that.

Speaker 2: 55:29
Yeah, we’ll get to that in a second. Because they have to like, even though they’re acclimating and prepping for this, I don’t there’s gonna be a level of hypothermia that they won’t be able to combat. So there has to be somebody there with dry clothes. Yeah. Somebody on the receiving end.

Speaker: 55:45
In the following week, two life vests washed ashore. One at Cronkite Beach near the Golden Gate Bridge, and one at Angel Island. And the thing is, everyone’s like, if they made it past Golden Gate Bridge, then they’re out in the Pacific and they’re gone. There’s no way they survived. Yeah, right. They’d have to have like stayed in the bay. So the FBI is like, look, we found these two life vests. This is obviously proof that they drowned, but the life vests were intact and they weren’t on a body, which tells me they probably got where they were going and took them off. Yeah. And like they were still floatable. Yeah, one of the documentaries actually analyzed it and they showed the life vests were surprisingly leakproof. They lived. They would have functioned fine. They lived. Mythbusters recreated this, made their own life vests. They lived. And raft and made it.

Speaker 2: 56:27
Well successful. If myth if Mythbusters did it, I believe a lot that Mythbusters do.

Speaker: 56:33
Because you know what?

Speaker 2: 56:34
Mythbusters use real science.

Speaker: 56:36
A paddle was found near Angel Island, but again, this was an intact paddle. Where they were intending to go. Yeah. So while they’re taking it as like, oh look, it was this is trap. This is this proves they sunk. Like, or it proves they got where they wanted to go.

Speaker 2: 56:51
How did they not get fined like in a month? You know what I mean?

Speaker: 56:54
Well, I’m thinking too, if they got away, are we to believe that all three of them turned their lives around and never committed another crime and got in trouble again? That’s what’s hard to believe.

Speaker 2: 57:03
Or did they go to like Brazil or something?

Speaker: 57:05
It’s sort of like the Hitler. Like, if Hitler really got away, we’re to believe that he really was able to underwrap.

Speaker 2: 57:10
Sound like they were really hardcore criminals. So yes, I could believe them.

Speaker: 57:14
Two days after the breakout, a rubber wrap packet was also discovered floating near Angel Island that contained an address book, 80 family photographs, and a money order that belonged to one of the escapees. So again, law enforcement is like they had to have died because they would have not have left this behind. But also again, it was found at their intended destination. So ha so obviously the the currents and everything that they researched were correct. You know what?

Speaker 2: 57:37
It just fell out of a pocket. You know what concerns me there though is like, so they were bringing a book full of addresses. Did the FBI go to every address in that book?

Speaker: 57:45
Uh the FBI was apparently stalking a lot of but you got people who are like, the FBI has like they couldn’t have survived, but you spend 17 years and so many resources investigating.

Speaker 2: 57:53
And you couldn’t prove they’ve died.

Speaker: 57:55
But you really but you want us to believe that you guys were sure they died? Yeah. The only body that was found was was like a month later. And it was reportedly spotted by a Norwegian ship that didn’t have a radio or refrigeration capabilities. So they couldn’t pull the body up on board. They couldn’t radio anybody, but they got to shore and they were like, Hey, 15 miles away from the Golden Gate Bridge, we saw this floating body, and people were like, Maybe it was one of them. But most believe this was a man who had jumped to his death a few days earlier. Uh, because after weeks, like this is they said after like a month, this body shouldn’t have been floating, it should have sunk at that point.

Speaker 2: 58:27
Um yeah, because doesn’t it like absorb water?

Speaker: 58:30
You float, you sink, you float.

Speaker 2: 58:31
Well, do you build gas?

Speaker: 58:33
Yeah, you’re as you’re decomposing. Yeah. Probably bloat up a lot. But everyone says that like bodies that go missing in the San Francisco Bay always show up. Like if people jump off the bridge or whatever, these bodies always wash up in the bay, unless again they make it out past the Golden Gate Bridge. So people are like, if nothing, if there was no body, they couldn’t have died. I would say there we I did give you some examples of bodies, people who got shot and sunken were never seen. And also about bodies that were found floating from escapees. So um can go either way. Uh, there was no evidence of any robberies or car theft matching the plans that Alan had told them about. So people are like, so how would they have gotten away if they didn’t steal a car? Right? If they made it away, what happened? They had an ally. So you think they had an ally? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 59:22
A woman, a woman. So who are the people that are left? The two brothers and one other guy?

Speaker: 59:27
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 59:27
There’s a woman.

Speaker: 59:29
So off duty, San Francisco police officer Robert Chechi reported seeing an unlit white boat lingering near Alcatraz around time of the escape with someone apparently shining a light into the water. So he was like, this wasn’t like a fishing boat or a workboat. It looked like a pristine, freshly painted white boat. And he’s like like a party boat, something you’d hang out on. And I saw these flashlights sort of like like scanning the water. Okay. He didn’t think anything of it. The next day he comes into work, he finds out that there was this escape, and he immediately tells the story. So this didn’t come like years later when it got famous. It was like a pretty quick story. He got interviewed multiple times, but he said he was told to bury the story because again, the FBI probably wants us to think Alcatraz would escape they didn’t lose prisoners. Decades later, an alleged deathbed confession independently claimed that the two accomplices waited offshore in a recently painted white boat to retrieve the escapees. So, in this documentary I watched, the Alcatraz Prison Escape, Deathbed Confession, it looks into this confession from John Leroy Kelly, who claimed that Frank Morris and brothers John and Clarence Anglin successfully escaped Alcatraz in 1962. Kelly alleged that he and an accomplice picked up the fugitives in a boat after their escape and helped them go north to Washington State, supposedly on their way to Canada. But according to Kelly, there was a woman that recruited them. He says, This woman told me that um six cards had been paid off and the rock and that the families of the escapees have raised $60,000. So John Leroy Kelly is paid $5,000 to meet him with the boat, get them to Canada. But now they’re like, wait, these guys have access to $60,000? That’s our goal. Like, let’s get the $60,000. Yes, deal it. So he claims that the pair then betrayed and murdered all three escapees for money, burying their bodies in a remote location in Washington. The problem with the story is that investigators searched the area described in the confession and found no remains. So what can you make of that? Fellow Alcatraz inmate Clarence Carnes later claimed that a few weeks after the escape, he received a postcard from the three men containing only the words gone fishing. He said that they had agreed on this phrase beforehand and that it would mean the escape was successful. But Carnes never produced the postcard, so we’ve only heard about this. It’s never been authenticated. Carnes also claimed the men had outside help. He believed the notorious Harlem crime figure Ellsworth Bumpy Johnson had arranged for a boat to retrieve them from the bay. They were subsequently dropped at Pier 13 in the Hunters Point area of San Francisco. Other proof that maybe they survived, okay. This lawyer, Eugen McGowan, was an attorney at a law firm in San Francisco. And she said she received a phone call the day after the escape. And this man called and he claimed to be John Anglin. He said, I’m John Anglin. I want you to contact the U.S. Marshal’s office. I said, Well, I’m not going to do that unless I know why. And he said, Do you know who I am? And I said, No. And he said, read the newspaper. And then he hung up. So why would he want to call in? Could be anyone, you know. Fred Breezy was a convicted drug smuggler and family friend of the Anglins who played with the boys growing up. He later claimed that the Anglins told him they had escaped and eventually settled in Brazil as farmers.

Speaker 2: 01:02:50
That’s what I was going to say. They had to have gone like European or something.

Speaker: 01:02:53
He said that he encountered them there and he photographed them and he gave these photographs to the Anglin family. So investigators compared facial features such as the men’s jawlines, hairlines, and facial proportions with known photographs of John and Clarence. And we have multiple different experts who have done facial recognition and they think these are very strong matches.

Speaker 2: 01:03:13
You know what this is sounding like, which makes me think that this is what the TV show is probably based on. You ever watch Prison Break the show?

Speaker: 01:03:19
Oh, I knew you were gonna bring up. I was waiting for you to bring up Prison Brack.

Speaker 2: 01:03:21
Yeah, I was like, this sounds just like the brothers who were in prison together, they break free and they go to Mexico.

Speaker: 01:03:26
A U.S. Marshal involved with the case recalled receiving a tip in the early 1990s from a man claiming the brothers were living on a farm in Brazil. So this happened years before the photograph was famous, like became publicly known. So kind of corroborates that. So as far as all this evidence that we have that we’re talking about, kind of the best piece of evidence that leans most towards they existed is this photograph that experts have said could be them. The mother reportedly got Christmas letters and flowers without return addresses, some signed by her sons, but the authenticity couldn’t be verified, nor was there DNA or fingerprints on them. In 2013, it was an alleged John Anglin letter. The San Francisco Police Department received a handwritten letter from someone claiming to be John Anglin, but they didn’t share this with the public until CBS leaked it five years later. So this letter said, My name is John Anglin. Yes, we all made it that night, but barely. He explained that all three men survived the 1962 escape. According to the letter, Frank Morris died in 2008, Clarence Anglin died in 2011, and John Anglin was still alive in 2013, but he was 83 years old and suffering from cancer. The writer claimed that they had lived for years in Seattle, then spent time on in North Dakota and was living in Southern California when he wrote the letter. He essentially told authorities that if they publicly promised that he would serve no more than one year in prison and would receive medical treatment for his cancer, he would contact them and reveal his location. So he pretty much was like, I will turn myself in because I need cancer treatment, but I only want to serve one year for this escape. The FBI tested this letter. They examined it for fingerprints, DNA, and handwriting and compared the handwriting against known samples from the Anglins and Frank Morris, and they couldn’t authenticate it. They couldn’t fitly say it was fake, but I did see the one documentary where they were like, this doesn’t even look like an 80-year-old’s handwriting. Like there’s no interruptions, it’s very smooth. So if it is him, it would have to have been like written on his behalf. The U.S. Marshall eventually closed that particular lead as having no merit. So that’s kind of where that’s what I’ve got about the escape. This Brazil picture is like pretty legit.

Speaker 2: 01:05:24
Yeah.

Speaker: 01:05:24
So anyway, not long after the escape, the decision was made to close Alcatraz. Some people are like, it’s because they were so embarrassed by this escape. More likely it was um because they needed like five million dollars to repair Alcatraz because of the salt damage. Frank Weatherman was the last inmate transferred off the island on March 21st, 1963, the same day RFK signed the order to close the prison. Whoa. It remained uninhabited until 1969 when it was occupied from November 20th, 1969 to June 11th, 1971, by a group calling themselves the Indians of all tribes. Oh. They claim the 1868 Treaty of Fort Laramie stated at any Unused federal land should be returned to the Native Americans, and they wanted to build a cultural center, spiritual center, and a college university while drawing national attention to broken government treaties. A university on the island would probably be kind of sick. Yeah, but that’d be so expensive. Yeah, but it would be kind of sick. The U.S. forcibly ended the protest in June of 1971. Two years later, the island was taken over by the National Park Service and opened to tours, and today it is visited by 1.5 million people annually, but I’m not one of them. I can believe it seems everything points to they went to Angel Island, which was their plan.

Speaker 2: 01:06:39
Someone on the outside was helping them, or on the inside, which is well they got 13, they were one of thirteen. Should we wrap it up with the hauntings? Yeah.

Speaker: 01:07:00
Yeah. So even before Alcatraz was I mean, it gave you that whole history before it became a prison. So there’s already some death there, and there are already rumors of hauntings before it even became a the first ever thing though, it was just a natural island where birds went. That’s how it was discovered. Okay. Pelican Island. Okay. Warden Johnson, who’s the first warden, he did not believe in ghosts, but he had some experiences. So in the 40s, he reported taking several guests on a prison tour, and they heard the sound of a woman sobbing coming from inside the walls. Then the sobbing stopped and an icy wind blew through the group. During a Christmas party at Warren Johnson, several guards told the story of a ghostly man who suddenly appeared before them wearing a gray suit, brim cap, and sporting mutton chop sideburns. As the startled guards stared at the apparition, the room suddenly turned very cold and the fire in the Ben Franklin stove was extinguished. Less than a minute later, the spirit vanished. And this is interesting because you can go see the remnants of the warden’s home, and people who visit it now report hearing party music.

Speaker 2: 01:08:10
I mean party music for like the 40s. Yeah, which is gonna say what are those like slow dance songs we’ve always danced, like in Catholic America? It always goes back to Marvel.

Speaker: 01:08:20
Guards also told of hearing phantom cannons and gunshots. Although the cannons never were fired. There was never a single cannon fired when they had the hundred cannons. There were gun gunshots exchanged. And like, but so I’m like, where did these phantom cannons come from if there were never there was never a cannon fired? But guards reported hearing phantom cannons and gunshots accompanied by screams that were so real they sent the seasoned guards to the ground. Footsteps in empty corridors and the sounds of prisoners being beaten when no such punishment was taking place. One guard said, We’d hear sounds coming from the cells at night, crying, moaning, sometimes what sounded like arguments. We’d check and there’d be nothing there. I was locking up one night when I felt someone grab my shoulder from behind hard. I spun around ready to fight, but there was no one there. The nearest inmate was in a locked cell 30 feet away.

Speaker 2: 01:09:05
Well, like the stories of like people getting bit up beat up and stuff, I’m like, you were just probably hearing echoes of people getting beat up.

Speaker: 01:09:11
Well, I think too, like there’s a lot of stories about cold spots and feeling like you’re being watched, understanding sounds. Well, yeah, I’m like San Francisco is cold and windy. This building is like damaged by salty air, so maybe the the building’s settling, maybe they’re feeling breezes from I believe in ghosts. You know, I know, but like just trying to be the rational person. I just feel like let me tell you about cell 14 D. Because this is the most haunted. Why? Well, let me tell you about D Block. We’ve talked about it a little bit, but it is the 36 isolation cells were. So this is where inmates were confined to the room 24-7, except for that one visit to the wreckyard and two showers each week. All meals were served in the cells. The cells faced the Golden Gate Bridge, and the guards would often crank up the AC. So between the draft and the winds from outside, it was frigid.

Speaker 2: 01:09:59
Kind of sounds nice.

Speaker: 01:10:00
In addition, there were six other cells known as the hole where the most severe offenders were sent. Uh, they were the coldest cells on the bottom tier. The first five contained only a sink toilet and low wattage light bulb. The guards could turn off. You were completely isolated, getting only a mattress at night. And then the last room, the strip cell, was the most severe. There was just a hole for a toilet, and that’s it. Prisoners would be completely stripped down and given a restricted diet and kept in the dark for up to two days. This is torture. Here is the lore, okay? The creepiest of the legends. A prisoner was allegedly placed in 14D. He cried out that a dark creature with glowing eyes was in the cell and was trying to kill him, and he screamed throughout the night and then suddenly stopped. The next morning he was found dead with marks around his neck. An autopsy was done, which revealed cause of death was asphyxiation, and the strangulation was not self-inflicted. And that prisoner is now said to haunt the cells. How do they know it wasn’t self-inflicted? Like, how do you know? Yeah, so I really tried to dive into this and I couldn’t find any proof of anyone dying in 14D, and I couldn’t find any evidence that anyone died in here ever of strangulation. Although Would they actually die? Well, here’s what I’m thinking of. If this patient person’s alone in a cell and they are strangled to death by someone else, I’m just thinking who are you pointing at? You’re pointing at the guards, right? Yeah, actually. So they’re lying. So maybe if this happened, they’re gonna come up with a ghost story. Or they’re gonna they’re gonna be like, we’re not gonna publicize that anyone ever died in 14D of strangulation. Yeah, but they accidentally killed him. Or I think he probably just didn’t happen, honestly.

Speaker 2: 01:11:31
They think this is a made-up story. Well, I am I I’m based on the description, I’m sure they were beating people up and killing them by accident. You don’t just think it’s okay to put somebody in a cell with only a hole in the ground of shit. Like, if you put somebody in there, you’re probably also beating people up. You know what I mean?

Speaker: 01:11:53
Like There was a guard in the 70s who said, I was making my rounds when I heard screaming coming from the solitary cells. It sounded like a man being tortured. I ran toward the sound, and as I got closer, it stopped. When I shot my flashlight into cell 14D, the temperature dropped so fast my breath started fogging. I saw something. I don’t know how to describe it. Like a shadow, but darker than the darkness around it. It moved toward the door and I ran. I quit the next day. So I don’t know about the story of the glowing red eyes. I will say that I looked, it looks like Rufus McCain, who’s the guy who Oh, the guy who ruined it for everybody. Couldn’t couldn’t swim and got killed. He was in 14D for many years. So maybe he’s the one who’s haunting 14D. I don’t know. Other experiences that visitors report. Uh apparently you can hear Al Capone playing the banjo while incarcerated Alcatraz. They hear banjo music coming from the shower area despite no one being there. But also, I’m like, Al Capone didn’t even die in Alcatraz. So why would he haunt Alcatraz? Do we have recordings of him playing banjos? I don’t know.

Speaker 2: 01:12:50
I would love to hear.

Speaker: 01:12:51
Maybe unless he was like, this was the last time he was like of sane mind. And I don’t know though. I don’t I don’t know why he’d go back to Alcatraz. Footsteps in empty corridors are heard, cell doors slamming without explanation, whispering and voices, especially in the mess hall. Screams coming for the old hospital ward where prisoners were sometimes tied down, a woman crying, apparitions of prisoners or guards, visitors suddenly becoming nauseated or anxious, claims of screams coming from former isolation areas. Those are all kind of what has been reported. So you believe in ghosts? You think it’s haunted? I do believe in ghosts.

Speaker 2: 01:13:23
I’m sure it’s haunted. There’s sure a lot of turmoil. Yeah. I’m sure it’s haunted. This place is sad.

Speaker: 01:13:29
Okay, that’s all I have. Do you feel like you got the tour?

Speaker 2: 01:13:32
Do you feel like Oh yeah, but now I want to see it.

Speaker: 01:13:34
Okay.

Speaker 2: 01:13:35
I’m like, I want to take a rock. I want to see if I could swim it.

Speaker: 01:13:38
So they say that now, again, like I don’t know if I said like triathletes will do the swim. So the swim is is done. And it’s like that guy who survived it at hypothermia. Yeah. He they said it was like really tough conditions that day. And the And he mate. So these other guys without a life vest. Yes. Well, he had like he made himself like um floaty arms, like a like a kid. But they’re like, if he could survive in these rough conditions and they had good conditions, they’d researched them and they are definitely yeah.

Speaker 2: 01:14:07
Yeah, I and again, everybody who’s listening, take your time to look up what the paper mache heads are. Because if they put that much effort into them, they lived. Okay. It’s uh it’s the paper mache for me. I’m sold. Okay. They lived.

Speaker: 01:14:26
So you believe it’s haunted, you believe they escaped, you believe they survived. Yeah. Those are all of our.

Speaker 2: 01:14:31
But I believe they’re we’re missing some part of it. Like there’s like a group of allies, or like, you know, I think there’s a little bit more that we don’t have, obviously, and we never will, but I do believe they survived.

Speaker: 01:14:43
Okay. Guys, just a reminder, don’t forget to check out our Facebook and Instagram pages at Three Scheme Queens. That’s the number three scheme queens, all one word. We’re also on Reddit, same username. If you want to check out our website, go to three scheme queens.com and you can find links to our social media accounts, our BuzzSpour page, all of our episodes, additional content, and our contact page where you can engage with us and share any updates on the topics that we have discussed. Let us know how we’re doing and what you want to hear next. There are also opportunities to financially support us with links to buy us a cup of coffee and links to our merch store. As always, if you choose not to financially support us, we appreciate the follows, the downloads, the listens, the likes. Do you want to take over for Kate?

Speaker 2: 01:15:22
Scroll on down. No, um, if you like this, send it to somebody who likes escape rooms. Okay. Yeah. And should me, Kate and Megan, do an escape room? I love an escape room. I do too, actually. I’m really good at them. Um, but I don’t like to play with teams. Like this escape on my own. Um, if you like this episode, send it to four people who like escape rooms, one person who likes prisons, and three and a half people who are interested in banjos. And the half means a child.

Speaker: 01:15:59
Maybe don’t send this to a child.

Speaker 2: 01:16:00
It’s a lot of death. Send this, send this episode to a case. Please don’t. Please don’t.

Speaker: 01:16:06
What if it’s their special interest? And scroll on down.

Speaker 2: 01:16:09
Scroll on down, give us a review, like the app, comment, interact, give us a follow. Yeah. And we’ll see you next Tuesday.

Speaker: 01:16:22
Maybe we’ll see you next Tuesday.