Hey, it’s Colleen. Hi, it’s Kate, and it’s Megan, and we’re the three scream queens. Join us each week as we take turns presenting a brand new conspiracy theory or mystery. From shadowy cover ups and unexplained events to viral rabbit holes. We bring the tea. It’s piping the facts and the tin foil crowns. Join the conversation, laugh along with us, and question everything. When it’s all over. We’ll tell you what we think and we’ll try to prove it to you. So grab your drink, hit the follow and tune in every Tuesday. Is this thing on? Hey, guys, we’re back. We’re back. One, two, three. We got all three scheme queens. Kate was in, like the I think you came back from the genetics lab. Oh, yeah. Did you learn anything new? Uh, that we’re not cloning humans yet. Oh, no. Yet. What about reincarnation? Oh, yeah. Reincarnation is, like, not a thing. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Thanks for that feedback. Do you know what is happening today? Um. April Fools, we are recording April Fools. But what is happening today? We’re going back to the moon. But we’re not landing. We’re seeing the dark side of the moon. Which, by the way, my brother Kristian, his laser that he built at work is on the rocket ship right now. Whoa. That is so cool how they’re communicating. Does she have a clearance? I don’t know, he sent me the article, so I feel like I can talk about it. Yeah. She said, what is the laser do when he said, read the fucking article? Yeah. And then my mom responded to him and said, but I like when you summarize it was it was a little bit rougher than when drew sends a link and we’re like, yeah, how about you summarize? anyway. She’ll bring him back on. If you believe that we went to the moon before. Yeah, like I do. Then we’re going back. I’m being persuaded. Well, Kate said she just was tired of arguing with me, so she just said, okay, Megan, we went to the moon. I acknowledged, I’m not smart enough to understand the science behind it, the microwaves you should be aware of now. But now it’s saying that this laser is how they’re communicating. And now I don’t understand how a laser can communicate. Is it the. Isn’t there like mirrors or something on them? Maybe that’s what the laser does, but yeah, that’s the microwave. No. So maybe it’s it’s helped. It helps measure distance and time because if like, see how far it gets back, like how quick it comes back. That is how they’re using the, the moon mirrors now, right? Yeah. Um, but this time they’re just lapping the moon. So like, what are they getting from this? Well, I think about who did we Bruce know Michael buzz Michael and he had to stay on and he said it was like the scariest, loneliest like. Yeah, fifteen minutes is being on the dark side of the moon. Yeah. No. No transmission. Pitch black. That’s like, my worst nightmare. Oh, for sure. Least they’re together. At least we’re together. Also, why did they name it Artemis? Hold on. Isn’t Artemis like a Greek god that does something with the moon? It’s gotta be Greek. Artemis is the Greek goddess of the hunt, wilderness and animals. Virginity and childbirth. Okay, well, nothing to do with the stars. She’s a she. Mhm. And nothing to do with the stars. You’re right. So, is it time for our drink to drink? Check. Oh, this week we have a listener request. Yes, we do. Rachel. Oh, we love Rachel. We love Rachel. She said you guys have to talk about alpine divorces. So that’s what we’re going to talk about. Okay. And before we get into it, I was like, what is an alpine themed cocktail? Something from the mountains. Well, everything was like, go by these different liqueurs that are going to cost, you know, thirty dollars for a bottle that I’ll never drink again. And I said, you know what makes me think about the wilderness? Yeah. Is it gin and tonic? Yes, because it tastes like a Christmas tree. It’s like kind of piney. Yeah. Okay. What does gin made from junipers. Oh, okay. Oh. So that’s why if you ever go to the Grand Canyon. Yeah, they point them out all the time. The tour guide pointed out, like eight times. And that is what gin comes from. Got it. Got it the first time. Um, I want to go to there. Yeah. Me too. But we, we spruced it up a little bit, right? We had we’re having frozen gin and tonics. They’re pretty good. Yeah. It’s a very good summer. I, I took a sip and Megan, I really, I was like, I like this. No, this is, I didn’t think I liked it, but because I, because I’m so used to them not liking them. It’s quite delicious because we also have a little bit of lemon. Yeah. The recipes from the Beefeater website. So it’s gin and fresh squeezed lemon juice and a little simple syrup and ice all blended and then topped with tonic water. I’m having the same thing, but with vodka soda. So mine really tastes like a frozen lemonade. Yours is like a Ginny lemonade. Frozen lemonade. I can taste the gin now. Yeah. Okay, so five out of five for this group. Yeah, that’s pretty good. I mean, it was eighty six degrees today, so it felt like a frozen. It was eighty six degrees today. Yeah. I had lunch outside and I got a little crispy. Yeah, I know I was in the. Yeah, she was in the thick of it. Okay, let’s get into it. So do you guys know what an alpine divorce is? No I don’t. Is it is it a divorce that happens in the woods? Is it when you throw somebody off the mountain? You’re both sort of right. Colleen, this is a very viral thing right now, so I’m actually surprised you were unfamiliar, but you guys are close. She’s not on that side of TikTok. People are just throwing people off the sides of the mountains. No, well it’s not. There’s a little more to it than that. So an alpine divorce is the ending of a relationship by murdering one significant other during a mountain trip and passing it off as an accident or abandoning a partner in a remote outdoor setting. Oh my gosh. Like Gabby sort of like Gabby. Yeah. The phrase originates from an eighteen ninety three short story by Scottish Canadian author Robert Barr, titled An Alpine Divorce. In the grim Tale, an unhappy husband plots to kill his wife during a trip to the Swiss Alps, only for her to turn the tables on him, having already framed him for her murder before leaping herself. Several high profile cases over the last few years have led to a viral trend of social media users telling their own stories of alpine divorce. These tales of domestic abuse involve one partner endangering the other in the wilderness, with the victim either being left in a perilous situation or merely abandoned without consideration for their safety and well-being. So today, we’re going to discuss some of the most high profile cases of alpine divorce. Oh my gosh, this is crazy. So there’s kind of the people online that are it’s like all these women are sharing their stories and it’s it tends to be more. So these cases of like the first case that we’ll discuss. Okay, so it can be either someone goes out and kills their significant other and tries to make it look like an accident, or it can just be they abandon them and then they are in this. Can you imagine just being like in the middle of the woods, ill prepared and you have no one? I mean, really, if you think about it, it’s like worse. I used to do a lot of solo hiking, and at least then you have like all of your gear, all of your equipment, you’re trusting yourself if you’re with your significant other. And he it’s almost always a he, right? He just like takes off. Now he’s got like your food and warm weather gear. You’re like worse off than if you’ve just been out there by yourself in the first place. Yeah. So the first case I’m going to talk about is one that has been in the news this year, and that’s the case of Thomas Berger and Kirsten Gertner. Oh, what horrible names. Well, he sounds German. Yeah. They’re they’re Austrian. Oh, okay. So sorry. In early January twenty twenty five. Worried Austrian hikers Thomas Berger and girlfriend Kirsten Gertner began to ascend the highest peak in Austria, the twelve thousand four hundred and sixty foot Grossglockner. Oh Thomas had planned the trip, having experienced completing this hike three times prior. His girlfriend, on the other hand, had never done a hike of this length, difficulty or altitude. Temperatures the day of the hike were negative eight degrees Celsius with a wind chill of negative twenty. So that’s negative four degrees Fahrenheit. Wow. With seventy four kilometer hour winds that’s like forty five miles per hour. And they’re doing this for enjoyment. Yeah. Wait, why would she go hobby. Hobby. She was a big hiker. I mean, I say that she hadn’t done a hike of this length that that gets into the conversation later about like the variation, their experience levels. And so it was really responsible here. Right. But Thomas claims that at at thirteen thirty on the nineteenth of January, they reached the last turn back point before the summit. And it’s like, you know, turn back now or proceed. And at that point they were feeling pretty good. Then there is some webcam footage showing flashlights from the couple at two thousand one hundred. So seven and a half hours later they’re still ascending. Okay. My gosh, in the dark. In the dark. It’s just stupid. So yeah, people on the ground see these flashlights, right? And they’re like, people are up there. So this prompted rescuers in the Valley to notify police. And a helicopter was dispatched at twenty two thirty. Wow. At twenty two fifty, a police helicopter flew overhead and no distress signals were sent. So Thomas claims that they were not distressed at that time. And many online sleuths explained, like helicopter rescue is not covered in Austria’s public insurance. So if he had flagged them down, it would have been a several thousand dollar bill. So either he didn’t want to pay that bill, something was going on, or maybe he was like, we really were fine and we weren’t going to flag these people down when we’re fine to pay a hefty bill. Okay, so anyway, twenty two fifty police helicopter flew overhead, no distress signals. Hamburger alleges that shortly after the helicopter flyover and to his complete surprise, Kirsten began to, quote, suddenly show increased signs of exhaustion. For the next two hours, the Alpine Rescue Service made multiple attempts to contact Thomas via his telephone, which he did not answer despite having service and receiving the calls. So he did call police at twelve thirty five a m. But the police and Thomas disagree on what was said. Thomas claims he called the police. He asked for help and felt that after his call, quote, the mountain police officer was aware of the seriousness of the situation and rescue was urgently needed. The police claimed that the conversation was unclear and that Thomas hung up on them, then put his phone on silent, and as they continued to try to call him, they weren’t able to reach him. He did not make any additional phone calls. Okay. Is their cell phone records of this? Yes. Okay. And they determined the phone was put on silent. And, I mean, I would say that I can understand you not feeling your phone like you’re bundled up. It’s cold. It’s windy. I can see not feeling your phone. But why? You wouldn’t make any effort to reach out for help beyond one time in this, like, four hour window, right? Feels kind of wild, right? Especially if this is your, like, girlfriend. Yeah, I have I have a question, though. Yeah. If he’s trying to, like, kill her. Well, we don’t know why. Yeah. Why go to this, like, length? Like, has he tried before and like, she’s, like, just completely trapped him. AM I skipping ahead? Hold that thought. Okay. The couple allegedly were one hundred and thirty feet, which is forty meters from the summit. When Thomas claims that his girlfriend told him to just go on without her and get help, and so they claim like, you know, again, there was this no turn back. The best option was to like reach the summit and then proceed down the other side. So he claims he left her to get her help, but he took with him all of their cold weather gear. Wait. And where is she? She’s just staying behind. He’s gonna go for help because she’s too tired. And then they’re gonna come back for her with help. So he scales that a cell phone with service. Wouldn’t have left that with her. There’s no way. The dumbest story. He scaled the summit, descended on the other side, and again, his torch lit figure is seen descending at two a m. So with this webcam footage, we can kind of track this timeline in addition to the telephone data and all that. He did not reach out again to emergency services until three thirty a m. At that point, the winds were so strong that a helicopter rescue could not occur. So the following morning at ten a m, helicopters go out to look for her. They find Kirsten dead of hypothermia, hanging upside down from a rock, suggesting a possible fall hanging upside down from a rock. Yeah, from a rock face. Maybe the wind pushed her. Maybe so. This went to court last month, a year later, and Prosecutors accused Thomas Berger of making nine mistakes that led to his girlfriend’s death. They started the ascent two hours later than the recommended window. He failed to advise her that she had inappropriate attire for the hike. She was wearing, like snowboarding shoes, and she had, um, like a a a an inappropriate backpack that was going to make her kind of more prone to going backwards like, like wind. Yeah. He failed to flag down that rescue helicopter when it first came. He silenced phone calls from police rescuers. He left her exposed without the survival gear that they had brought with them. They said, quote, the defendant left his girlfriend unprotected, exhausted, hypothermic and disoriented about fifty meters below the summit cross of the Grossglockner. The woman froze to death before leaving his girlfriend around two a m. He neither used the available emergency blankets to protect her from further cooling, nor did he remove her heavy backpack and clipboard. He wanted her to freeze. Yeah, some people say this is an example. like incident hit, where you have these cascading small mistakes that compound. And it becomes increasingly difficult to extricate yourself from. As the severity of the incident increases. So it’s just like one mistake after the other and you just can’t overcome them. Her family said, look, she’s kind of been painted to be this like novice outdoorsman, but she wasn’t a novice outdoorsman. Okay, so the argument when this went to court is like, who is responsible if you were hiking with someone and one is the, you know, quote, expert, that’s who’s responsible. But what is like the variation have to be in your right knowledge levels? I would argue again. She could be a really great outdoorsman. But if he’s making mistakes, like not flagging down help, right? Not calling for help, that does make him responsible. Reliable, right? So thirty nine year old Thomas Berger was found guilty of gross negligent manslaughter. He received a suspended five month prison sentence and a nine thousand six hundred euro fine. I read online like the the judge was an outdoorsman as well, and maybe he was a little sympathetic. Ninety six thousand doesn’t feel like a lot. No, I mean, you might as well have just paid that fee for the helicopter. But during the trial, the judge found the defendant had misjudged the situation, but had not deserted his girlfriend willfully. I don’t see you as a murderer. I don’t see you as cold hearted. During the trial, however, an ex-girlfriend named Andrea B, because they don’t use anyone’s last name on these articles in Europe, testified that in twenty twenty three, Thomas had left her alone on the same climbing trail, feeling ill with her headlight, not working, crying and screaming as he went ahead without her. Wow. Okay. Sounds like a pattern. Yeah, yeah, the judge said. Was there a situation where he left you behind alone? And she said, this is on the stand, right? Yes. When we did the Glockner traverse, the mood was bad. We descended overnight. I wanted to go straight down. He was grumpy. I was at the end of my strength. Apparently I was too slow for him. And suddenly he was gone. It was the middle of the night. I was completely alone. My headlamp went out, I I felt dizzy, I bawled and screamed. I was all alone. He had gone ahead to the Luckner hut. That was also our last mountain tour. The judge says. I can well imagine that. Had there been a similar situation before? Not to that extent, but there were things like that. If I was slower, clumsy, he would get grumpy and tell me not to make a fuss. I had definitely said that I wanted to do it. I was aware of what I was getting myself into. So yeah, it sounds like this guy might just be like a pissy guy who, like, gets frustrated with his girlfriend on a on a hiking trail, but like, he has zero patience. It’s still a pattern, right? No one I want to be hiking with. No. Why take all of her cold gear? That’s so stupid. He sounds well, it wasn’t. Yeah, yeah, I feel like if I was like, I’m going for help, I would be. We’d be pulling in our bag. Yeah. We’d like, let’s layer up. Here’s our blanket. Let’s write whatever I can to set you up for success. Well, I go for help. Why would he take those things? Kirsten sounds selfish and narcissistic. He does sound like maybe I’m leaning towards. He’s not purposely killing these women or trying to kill them. He’s a real narcissist. Way to leave somebody in their most vulnerable state, right? In, like, the scariest place you could be. Right in the woods after dark. On a cold, windy mountain. Yeah. Kirsten’s mom said we cannot blame her boyfriend. She does mountain runs and managed far more difficult mountains than this one. It makes me angry that Kirsten is being portrayed as a naive little thing who let herself be dragged up the mountain. I think it’s unfair how Kirsten’s boyfriend is being treated. There’s a witch hunt against him in the media and online, so she has been supportive of him. Again, he didn’t even serve time for this. But that’s the first story. Imagine dying and being left on a mountain and your mom is still saying, don’t worry, her boyfriend was better than that. Imagine that. I’d be so mad at my mom, I’d at least be angry at him. Just why didn’t you flag down the helicopter? You were just negligent. There’s no way. Like, there’s no way this helicopter went by. And twenty minutes later you were like. And then suddenly she just was exhausted. Well, if he was that big of a narcissist, he probably thought he could get him out without the helicopter. You know what I mean? Like, because they’re so in there. Maybe he’s just like a jerk and was like, if you flag down that helicopter. Yeah, like, I will never forgive you or something like that. Yeah. We’re doing a lot of speculation. There’s a lot of speculation. Speculation. There were some theories on Reddit, too, that he like, took her phone, like to prevent her from calling for help. When we talk about especially the viral, you know, women telling their stories about alpine divorce, this is sort of what they’re mostly talking about is these instances where like a man just took off and left them abandoned. I have a lot of questions about how this couldn’t be. I’m putting this one as not murder narcissism. We work in healthcare. If one of our patients dies because of we’re negligent, we are going to be held accountable for that. You’re right. That is the same thing At this point, that is unacceptable. You’re right actually. Yeah, yeah. Not narcissism. Murder by abandonment. Murder by negligence. Yeah, but not intentional. But we’re gonna get into some cases that are that are. There’s one other case that’s playing out in the courtroom right now that we’re going to finish with, but I’m going to tell you two cases before that that I remember vividly from my extensive true crime TV documentary viewing. So Robert Spangler was a fitness aficionado again, a narcissist whose wife, Donna, fell one hundred and sixty feet to her death during a hike in the Grand Canyon in nineteen ninety three. Oh my gosh, Grand Canyon. She was the statistic. One person a day. That’s why not meant to go there. I think one person a day feels a little bit look it up. One person a day dies in that. I am Every day. One person look it up. I have such a fear of falling. Fifteen to twenty people die annually at the Grand Canyon annually. One person a day. That sounds right. That sounds right. She was. She was the statistic. She. She was a statistic. So Donna Spangler fell one hundred and sixty feet to her death during a hike in the Grand Canyon. At the time, it was considered an accident until investigators noted that Robert Spangler seemed to have bad luck with women in his life dying tragically. He and his. He’s a serial killer. He and his high school sweetheart had been married for twenty three years when his wife, Susan, allegedly killed herself and the couple’s two teenage children in a murder suicide. The couple had recently reconciled after a nine month separation, but things didn’t match up. There were no warning signs from Susan. Gunshot residue was found on Robert’s gloves, but not on Susan’s hands. There were no fingerprints on the typewriter where Susan had allegedly left a suicide note. And. There was an odd trajectory of the bullet wounds, and the location of the weapon was inappropriate for someone who had committed suicide. Oh. Oh. Mhm. Nonetheless, the family was quickly cremated, and seven months later, he married a hiker and writer, Sharon Cooper. Rule number one. Don’t do cremation unless you die of natural causes. I’ve got three rules so far here. Don’t go hiking with a man that has temper issues, okay? Don’t go hiking at after the darkness comes around. I would totally hike the Appalachian Trail. Don’t get cremated. I would not do that unless it was natural causes. Have you heard the stories of the people? I think I would have so much fun. Oh my gosh, I would have a trail name. I have friends from college who have hiked that, and one of them said he was alone and he had disposable cameras with him, and he came back and there were pictures of him sleeping. I would only go with a buddy. Exactly. Thank you. I would do it. That’s fine. With a buddy? Yeah. So, seven months later, he married hiker and writer Sharon Cooper. Seven months. Yeah. So while Sharon was. He was. He was in her, you know. Yeah. He was he was. Yeah. You know. Yeah. In the. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Well, Sharon was busy writing books about the Grand Canyon. Robert went to visit his father, who was apparently a good ninety two. Okay. Okay. Ninety two, but otherwise healthy. Yeah. And, uh, while Robert was visiting, he took a fall and died within two weeks, leaving a nice inheritance for Robert so Robert could retire. Wait a second. His dad died of a fall accident while he was visiting him. Accident? Oh, man. Just likes to kill. So Sharon suffered from bipolar. This is his new wife. Oh, and nineteen eighty seven, she called nine one one, claiming that she feared for her life. And she was found crouched in the stockroom of a local supermarket. So whether she was truly in danger or having a menti b is unclear. Yeah, but the two divorced and Robert had to pay her one hundred fifty thousand dollars plus five hundred dollars a month in spousal support. But it was written in this agreement that if she preceded him in death, he would get twenty thousand dollars back if she died first. He got money. He’s going to get money from her, so he kills her. Okay. Yeah. So spoiler alert she dies first. So he comes into some hard times. Spoiler alert she dies first. We gotta lock in. So Robert was forced to go back to work because he’s out of money. And in the meantime, he met Donna Sundling through personal ads. Oh, my God. She was an aerobics instructor who was well off financially. Donna suffered from vertigo and was afraid of heights and didn’t love to hike the canyon with her husband. Apparently, like their marriage was sort of on the rocks, but she’s trying to make the most of it. She’s trying to keep the marriage alive. She agrees to go on this hike that she doesn’t really want to go on with him in the Grand Canyon. They’re on the rocks in the Grand Canyon. That was good, I got it. Okay. On April eleventh, nineteen ninety three, Bob Spangler arrived at the Back Country Ranger station. He claimed that he and his wife were hiking and had stopped for a photo. He was setting up his camera and when he turned around, she was gone. He never heard a scream or anything. He located her body one hundred and sixty feet below the spot that she had been sitting. He claimed he found her dead, wiped her face with a handkerchief, covered her with a tarp, grabbed her pack and went off to report it. He became an outspoken advocate of hiking safety, being interviewed by multiple news conglomerates. The body was quickly cremated. Oh. He ended up reconciling with Sharon, his ex-wife. Oh my God. Then ended up overdosing in an alleged suicide, getting him his twenty thousand dollars. Oh my God. Yeah, this man’s crazy. And he remarried a woman named Judy Hilty after being diagnosed. Man gonna get married. I think that all the time. Like there is a lid for every pot. There are apparently five lids for this pot. Yeah, he must have been a love bomber. I can see it now. So he remarried Judy Hilty after being diagnosed with inoperable lung cancer with Mets to the brain. And police are like, oh, Judy is not safe because we have just figured out that he has killed three wives. Yeah, Judy. Two children. Yeah, and a dad. So they brought him in because they’re like, we can’t sit on this. So he comes in dying, man. He eventually confessed to the murder of his first wife and two children. So if he had Mets to the brain, was he alert? Oh. Good question. I think we can assume he was at this point. Okay. And they said that he wanted to speak to profiler. And they were like, the profilers don’t just speak to anybody. They only speak to serial killers. And you don’t meet criteria for serial killers at this point. And he goes, well, he doesn’t. And they go, he does. If you. But his confession of I murdered my first wife and two children does not make him a serial killer. Right, right. Because it’s all one time. Yes. Got to commit to it. So he says, okay, well, then I’m gonna be honest. I was looking Donna in the eye and I pushed her off the ledge at the Grand Canyon. Oh my God. He denied being involved in the murder of Susan or his father and his wife. Judy stood by him until his death in custody in two thousand and one. Oh my God. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Hold on. He wanted to speak to a profiler because he wanted the glory of being known as a serial killer. That is the most serial killer thing ever. Judy, that is, like, the most narcissistic, antisocial personality. You want that description, and you want the profiler to look at you and be like, how did you figure it out? Something’s wrong with you. Yeah, like I thought I did everything right. Now you tell me how you figured it out. Like that. Seems like what he wanted. I thought I was smarter than this, and I can’t believe I got caught. That is so freaking crazy. Why would I be still standing by his side? She said, I’ve never seen this side of him before. Also, she’s safe while he’s locked up, you know? Also question. Could he have frontal Metz and his personality was different. Could he have answered the whole time? Do you think frontal made nice? Maybe that’s what made him kill the first wife. I thought you were saying the Mets. Yeah. The Mets made him no longer violent. And a nice person changed his personality. How about them Mets? But also, if you found out Bourbon Boy had murdered, like, six people before you got together. I don’t even know you. Who are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. I dream that he had murdered someone, and I found him in bed with. You’ve been having crazy dreams. Yeah, maybe it’s the Lexapro. I’m telling you. Okay. Our next story. If you really want the details, Kate, it is covered in season one of Wild Crime on Hulu. Okay. Four episodes. Okay, I’m going to give you a one page summary here though. Okay? Okay. In twenty twelve, Tony and Harold Henthorn gay men went no. Toni with an I. She’s a doctor of of ophthalmology. Toni. Toni Brown. They went to the Rocky Mountain National Park for romantic twelfth wedding anniversary celebration. My goodness, how romantic. Also, I would say if your marriage is on the rocks, don’t go on a hiking trip with your partner. Avoid rocks at all costs. On September twenty ninth, the couple planned to walk the Bear Lake Trail, a half mile easy paved loop trail an appropriate hike for Toni, given that she had had knee surgeries and was kind of restricted in her mobility. Toni, you are relatable. At the last minute, they decided to do the Deer Mountain Trail, a remote trail with twelve hundred feet of climbing to a ten thousand two hundred foot summit. That’s the last minute hike they’re decided to take. Yep. And they also got a late start. Of course, I did a fifteen thirty three thirty p m. The couple had lunch at Scenic Overlook and took photos together at sixteen forty five. So an hour and fifteen minutes later, they ventured off the trail and snapped more photos. Then, at eighteen hundred, Harold called the Rangers to report that Tony was taking a photo and fell off a cliff. He claimed her breathing was weak and he was instructed on how to perform CPR. He kept saying, I can’t stay connected on the phone because my battery is low. So he didn’t stay on the phone with nine one the whole time. At eight p m, about twenty hundred, search and rescue discovered Harold and declared Tony dead. He didn’t abandon her? No, according to Harold, this was all a tragic accident. But there were inconsistencies. Okay. Investigators found a map in his car with a pink X marking the spot where Tony supposedly fell. Oh, that feels like. Oh my God. Sometimes people can be real idiots. Like, if you’re gonna plan a murder, why mark the spot? Why are you like this? Is it? That’s crazy. Phone records indicated he had visited the park nine times in the six weeks prior to the accident. Oh, my God, he planned this. I told you he had to disconnect the phone and he was doing CPR. First of all, can you imagine doing CPR for two hours alone? No, no. Usually you switch out a CPR every like every two to five minutes. Yeah. It’s exhausting. It’s exhausting. During the time he was supposedly giving CPR. He made twenty two calls and sent or received ninety eight text messages, which is odd because he was trying to conserve his battery. Well, it was like he was like calling her like brother and was like, she’s had a tragic fall. I’m like, is that really what you would. I would feel like I would be focused on like helping or like in shock, probably dead at this point. Like I’d be like in shock. He had time to build himself a fire despite uninterrupted CPR. He built himself a fire. No way. Wait, he told him. He told them he’s been doing CPR the whole time. Yeah, he. Oh my God, he would have died. Was this man sweaty? He had. If he was really doing CPR. Yeah, he. Her lipstick was intact, so no evidence of any mouth to mouth. And she had no signs of bruising or rib fractures. He had taken out multiple life insurance policies out totaling four point five million dollars. What? So initially, the police were like, this is. Well, it was like Rangers who were investigating this, like, this is really weird. But then they started getting dozens of anonymous tips. Oh, no. Harold’s first wife, Lynn, had been fatally crushed in nineteen ninety five, a few months after their twelfth wedding anniversary. Wait, he had another wife of twelve years? Yeah. Before this wife and this wife was twelve years, too. Yeah. Wait a second. Was it like a number for him? I don’t know, but I haven’t even gotten to. The best part of the story. Is that how the first wife died? She got crushed. She said she was trash compactor. She was crushed when their Jeep Cherokee slipped off a jack while she was underneath and he was trying to change a tire. Why was she underneath? Yeah, exactly. But why was anyone underneath? You don’t have to be underneath a car to change the car. I know the couple had been changing a tire in a dark mountain highway thirty miles from their home in Denver. She under the car. The area had no cell service. A mechanic came by, offered to assist. Harold said, nope. We’re good. Red flag. He claims what he thinks happened is. He said he went to throw the flat tire in the back of the car, and the car fell off the jack and it fell down on top of her. And all he could assume is that she had dropped the lug nuts and was searching for them underneath the car. But in the Hulu special, they like, just lay there like this. The timing doesn’t work for this, and it wouldn’t have just fallen off the jack. And that’s all nonsense. But yeah, why is this lady laying underneath the car, do you think? Okay, here’s my question then. How did you really die? What happened? Did you just, like, get in the car and run over? Run her over? Well, they’re they’re three was like, if he did something, if he was like, go. Can you go get the the nuts or something? Not the lug nut. And they had demonstrated how the easier thing would be if he just like hit the jack, it would come down instantly and could have crushed her and it would be less of this accidental. Maybe he accidentally dropped he purposefully, but don’t accidentally drop something. He’s like, hey, while I’m doing this, can you climb under and grab it and then kick the jack got sick people. Jack’s are very precarious, you know what I mean? Especially the ones. Well, this wasn’t a regular jack either. Oh, it’s like a boat, Jack. He had taken a life insurance policy out on Lin two and a half months before her death, collecting the equivalent of what today would be over one point two million dollars. Does he have a problem with gambling? Well, he had not been working. He had been advertising as he was somebody who was like a fundraiser. Yeah. And money laundering. But he really it’s and it’s like he had nannies and he was like going to work each day, but what he was doing was like going to Panera and like being on his computer, right? And then he was off going out to the to scope out his murder scene for six weeks. So I think he just didn’t want to work. He was just lazy. And it’s like prisoners when I’m like the creativity, if you could just focus that on like productivity instead of like how to not work like you’re at, you’re spending more energy not working than if you just worked. So pretty much. Investigators discovered this man was a fraud who was taking out life insurance policies on the women in his life. There was also like an ex sister in law who he took a life insurance policy out and she said, don’t do it. I don’t want I don’t want the policy. And then the police were like, you know, he’s been paying on that policy. So she’s like, so he could have killed me at any point. Like, yeah, Holy heck. So scary. Yeah. He was found guilty of the murder of Tony in twenty fifteen. He’s serving life in prison. He has not been charged with the murder of his first wife. Lynn. That is so weird. Twelve years. Each time you think something’s. Something’s wrong. just like an OCD mix with cereal. Also, I think if a man is like, why don’t you go over to that really precarious ledge so I can take your photo? Don’t do that either. No. There are some people though. If they told me to take a picture, you would, I would. Sometimes I am a follower. Yeah, you know, but it’s not because you like to follow. It’s because, like, if you don’t want to rock the boat. Yeah. If one of you were like, oh, Colin, can you just go sit over there for a second? My immediate my immediate action is to go stand over there and then question it. Like, I’ll do it first and then I’ll be like, why am I standing over here? And then you’ve already pushed me off. That’s what I would have done. No, like this is like a TikTok trend where it’s like there’s three different friends. Go stand over there. Me go stand over there. You be like, why do I need to stand over there? I’m not doing it. Yeah, right. It’s like at the bottom of the mountain. Kate’s like outright refusal. Meghan’s questioning caused an argument, and Colleen’s has already done it. Like Megan’s the boss. We’re not calling. Megan’s the one who says, do it. You’re the one that goes over there and does it. And I’m the one that says, I don’t want to do that, or you’re. Yeah. That’s exactly. Actually. Yeah. I just feel like if I woke up tomorrow and was like, I don’t like calling anymore, we would just go our separate ways. We would. I don’t need to like murder you immediately crying like I’m calling you out crying. I know calling, I am crying. She’s imagining. She’s like, oh, you thought about that? No, no, I wouldn’t want to. I wouldn’t murder anybody, is my point. I’m like, my point is calling it would I just feel like there are so many steps between that and murder? Yeah, I’d rather the murder. Because I’ve said this over and over again the way I want to go out. It’s gotta be wild. I’m not gonna murder you. Anyway, this just got off the rails. Maybe on the record. On the record? Yeah. So on to our last story, which is currently, at the time of this recording still playing out in the courtroom, but we don’t have a final verdict on trend right now. The other recent case that is in the press is the case of Ariel and Gerhart. He’s an anesthesiologist. Yeah he is, which we said it’s always an anesthesiologist, but we’ll get. Okay. Here’s my question. You’re an anesthesiologist. Why not just take a little paralytic? Yeah, girlfriend. That’s the whole point of the story. It’s called Kate. Let me tell the story. Sorry. Okay, so, Ariel and Gerhart, uh, Koenig are hiking the Pali Puka Trail in Oahu in March of twenty twenty five. His first name is Gerhart. Yes. Okay. What nationality is he? Koenig. He’s South African. Oh. The couple lived in Maui and had recently been counseling after Ariel, a nuclear engineer, had admitted to an emotional affair with a coworker. Oh. After several rough months, Gerhart, an anesthesiologist, surprised his wife with the weekend away to celebrate her thirty seventh birthday. The couple arrived in Oahu on March twenty third and went to the spa and had dinner the following day. He presented his wife with a birthday card that said, there isn’t an obstacle in this world too hard for me to fight through for you. They made plans to the Pali Puka Trail, a one mile hike about a thirty minute drive from Honolulu, and then returned for dinner. The couple set off on the hike, sending photos to family, but a quarter of a mile in, Ariel became uncomfortable with the steepness of the hike and refused to go on. He allegedly hiked ahead for a bit and when he returned, was surprised that she was still there. He was like, come on, come on, it’s a great view. You should come see this. They took a selfie near the edge of a cliff. Oh, no. And then she claims he grabbed her by the arm and said, I’m so fucking sick of this shit. Get back over here and begin pushing her towards the cliff. She alleges they wrestled and he ended up straddling her before pulling out a syringe. She claims she knocked the syringe out of his hand, but he reached into his bag and pulled out a vial. Oh no. They were yelling profanities at each other. She bit his forearm and she squeezed his testicles while screaming at him. She claims he bashed her head into a rock ten times while she continued to scream for help before she heard a woman’s voice say, we’re here and we’re calling. Nine one one. Amanda Morris and Sara Buschbaum were two friends who had just started their hike. Healthcare heroes when I heard my dreams. You know what? Nurses would run towards help. Oh my God, they would power to the nurses. That’s crazy. Also, how lucky it is. Always the anesthesiologist. Yeah, because they’re the only doctors who touch meds. That’s right. Every other doctor like orders the meds, and then you got to get a nurse. It’s the nurse. Go into the Omnicell or the Pyxis. But the doctors are just like taking propofol home. Yeah. I feel like there’s so many stories about like. Yeah. anesthesiologists drugging their spouses. Yeah. So the two nurses escorted Ariel to the trailhead where they met responding officers on their body cam footage. You can see her bloodied face and head at the same time. Her husband remained frozen where they left him. He faced them. So they had two kids, but he had a nineteen year old from a previous marriage, so he FaceTimed his nineteen year old son, and he confessed to him that he had tried to kill Ariel because he suspected she had been cheating on him for months. He fled the scene and was apprehended eight hours later. Wow. At the hospital, she was treated for a complex scalp lacerations, leaving scarring on her head and face and treatment for a distal fracture of her thumb. The syringe and vial were never found. Ariel did report finding a medical bag with syringes and propofol vials in their home closet three days after the incident. Oh, wow. Oh, God. The defense alleges that Ariel started a fight, walking up and pushing him from behind, and that he was defending himself. This was not premeditated. Well. What the. Why were the meds there? Right. But they. But they’re like. But were there meds there because there was no syringe or propofol at the scene? She’s claiming he had meds and he disappeared. I mean, he disappeared for eight hours. Oh, yeah. Okay, okay. Hold on. So she comes up and tries to push him, and then all of a sudden he aggresses and is like, bashing her over the head. No, he’s bigger and stronger. And he could just, like, restrain her. Mhm. You know what? When you’re in the woods and you have to decide between being with a bear and being with a man picking bear. Okay. Gerhardt faces up to life in prison with the possibility of parole if he is convicted of second degree attempted murder. And I think we estimate about a week left on this trial. We are in the thick of it. We’re in it. All right, ladies, so what do you think? Um. I think he did it. Wait. My other question is, did she have anything in her system? Well, he never actually got her. She knocked the. She. He didn’t stick her with any. No. She knocked the syringe out of his hand and then she said he pulled a vial out of his bag. Well, my question is, why didn’t he have it preloaded? Why did he. He did. Preloaded. Oh, and then he was. He had backup. Oh, okay. Yeah. You know, sometimes it’s pretty quick acting. So he wants to make sure. I kind of feel like, again, I believe it, I believe it, I believe her story, but also this just feels like an extra like if he was going to do this. Yeah. Just push her off the edge like they’re gonna if they do an autopsy and they’re like, why did she have propofol in her system? That’s a good point, right? Well, you know, it feels like he made it. And maybe if he made it. Oh, yeah. And maybe if he had focused more on pushing her, he wouldn’t have even needed and less on like, maybe that’s what got him caught up is like him trying to grapple with this propofol, although maybe she was just too badass for him, you know what I mean? Slippery. Yeah, I it sounds like he was he grabbed her and was trying to pull her towards the edge. And that’s when she started. Yeah. He grabbed her by the arm. He said, I’m sick of this shit. Yeah. And he grabbed her by the arm and she was fighting. Yep. So maybe, you know. Also, it seems like these other people all picked kind of remote locations. This is like a very touristy hike. Also not an avid hiker. No, no. Also, again, if you’re on the outs and your anniversary comes up and your spouse says, let’s go on a surprise wilderness getaway, don’t do it. Don’t do it. Also, imagine running and trying to hide somewhere. And on Maui, that’s where they were. An island, literally. Where are you gonna go? They’re definitely gonna find you. Running is guilty. Yes. Yeah. So I mean, yeah. Or anti that man. So we. Well, it sounds like we’re anti all four of these men. Yes. Well they all say they’re all yeah. Yeah. The first one just seems like we said he was just like narcissist. Irresponsible, had temper issues with storming off and leaving women behind and was not negligent. Right? Yeah. Two and three were serial killers who were murdering their wives by pushing them off cliffs and acting like they had fallen. And then this guy sounds like he was on track to become another one of those people. Yeah, but he also he sounds like a crime of passion guy. He had propofol in his bag because they were. Yeah, but I think I’m not. I’m not defending him. Let me be clear. I’m not defending him. Right. But I it sounds like they were having a hard time. She had an emotional affair. He was upset about it and wanted to get back at her and wanted to kill her because of that. And I don’t think that that’s like to me, that feels reactive, not still premeditated. No, I I’m not agree. I’m not disagreeing. Yeah. I’m saying it feels different than the other two because the other two felt like antisocial. Yeah. It feels like he was like a crime of passion. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think crime of passion. I know what you’re saying. Cain. I think crime of passion is. Is I walk in and you’re cheating on me. And then I kill you. Yeah. As opposed to we’ve been in therapy for months working on this, and I have put propofol. I mean, on the one hand, I’m like, was he just mad and pushed her, like, without any premeditation? Because again, it’s like, I’m like this, this touristy attraction is what you chose. But also if he really had propofol with him, that feels premeditated. Yeah. But like, why take the propofol if you’re just gonna push somebody? That’s what I’m saying. I don’t understand why propofol had to even be involved unless he just was like, he could not control her or like maybe he was gonna use it in a different setting and it just happened to be with him. Oh, what? He just, like later on, he was gonna have a romantic night with some propofol. Yeah. Okay. Like he he wasn’t planning on, like, pushing her at that point. I would say to propofol has to be given IV, but are we just assuming it was propofol? Well, she said she found we he she described vials, but then she said when she went home, she found propofol in the house because he could have had anything. Yeah, yeah. You’re not you can’t get propofol. I mean, I guess probably the better thing would be the more painful thing, but better thing would be what Kate said is like, just give him a paralytic. What could you give? I am giving versed, but probably versed would be like disorientation, right? That’d be like snoozing. I mean, I guess you could go into respiratory arrest if you have like a big enough dose. Yeah. And at least make her like. It’s like trying to fight a drunk person, right? We can do some im paralytics. So rock little sucks. Yeah. Either way, I believe her. But, like, all of these are alpine divorces because they involved a cliff. Why not just take some cardio? Because it involved a man wanting to end the relationship by taking a woman into the woods and leaving her in a dire situation. Yes, guys, just a reminder, don’t forget to check out our Facebook and Instagram pages at three Scheme Queens. That’s the number three scheme queens. All one word. We’re also on Reddit. Same username. If you want to check out our website, go to three queens dot com and you can find links to our social media accounts, our Buzzsprout page, all of our episodes, additional content, and our contact page where you can engage with us and share any updates on the topics that we have discussed. Let us know how we’re doing and what you want to hear next. There are also opportunities to financially support us with links to buy us a cup of coffee and links to our merch store. As always, if you choose not to financially support us, we appreciate the follows, the downloads, the listens, the likes. Okay, Kate, what should the people do? Don’t take a treacherous journey. You know that audio. Um. The people. Yeah. You know what I want you to do? I want you to take out your phone right now. I want you to text three people that like true crime and antisocial personality disorder And hope no one likes that. Well, likes the learning about it. You can. And the wilderness. If you’ve got friends out there who were like. Into the wilderness. Into the unknown. Into the thick of it. And then I want you to scroll on down. Leave us a five star review. Uh, share us on your social media platforms. Interact with us on our social media platforms. Leave us a comment. Send us an email. Well, an email would be fun anyways. All right. Any other thoughts? Nope. No, actually. But I enjoyed all four of those stories. Good. And make me, um, scared. Appropriately scared. Yes. So anyway, it has been fun and yeah. We’ll see you next Tuesday, guys