Welcome. 
It’s just the two Scheme Queens today.
Yeah. Kait is currently on top of Mount Everest hunting a Yeti. 
Oh, okay.
And then next week, she’s deep in the ocean looking for the Titanic.
Oh. I can’t remember. Her schedule with this animal hunting is just an animal hunting.
Yeah. Very, very hard to lock down. 
Creature hunting.
Yeah. Yeah. 
So you just get two of us today.
Yeah. And I’m back to crocheting again, which helps me pay attention to what Megan tells me. What have we been up to lately, Megan? I’ve been doing a lot of crocheting.
I too have been doing a lot of crochet. 
I deep cleaned my room and apartment the other day. That felt really good.
Yeah, I’ve just been doing some DIY projects. 
Oh, yeah. So, Megan, how can they support us? 
Before we get started, don’t forget to check out our Facebook and Instagram pages, 3SchemeQueens.  That’s the number 3SchemeQueens, all one word. If you want to check out our website, we’re at 3schemequeens.com. You can find links to our social media accounts, our Buzzsprout page, all of our episodes, additional content, and our contact page. Let us know how we’re doing or what you want to hear next.  There are also opportunities to financially support us there with links to buy us a cup of coffee, links to our merch store, and Amazon affiliate links to additional content related to the topics that we have covered. As always, even if you choose not to financially support us, we appreciate the follows, the downloads, the listens, the likes. Scroll on down, leave us a five-star review, leave us some comments.
We appreciate it. I guess we should give a shout out to our most recent coffee donor. Yeah, they go by the name Someone.
Somebody wanted to remain anonymous, and so Someone bought us three cups of coffee. 
I genuinely have no idea who Someone is, so thank you so much. 
I think we have a suspicion.
It might be Someone we’ve shouted out to on the pod before. 
And if it’s not that Someone, thanks anyways. 
Yeah, but we love you, whoever.
We appreciate it. Is it time for our drink check? 
Yeah, drink check. 
What’s our drink today, Megan? Because Megan made it.  She’s the bartender today. 
So in anticipation of this wild twin story I’m going to tell you today, we’re having the twin sisters cocktail. 
Shout out to my mom, who’s a twin, and my Aunt Michelle, who’s her twin.
Absolutely. 
So maybe they want to sit around and have a twin sister cocktail. It’s white rum, spiced rum.
We used a Diet Coke. 
Yeah, you know. 
Diet Coke, girls.
And a splash of lime juice. So it’s really just a rum and Diet Coke that’s like part spiced rum, part white rum. 
Spicy.
Yeah. What’d you think? 
I think it’s delicious. It tastes very tropicana.
Is there enough ice for you? 
Yeah. Oh, Megan adjusted her ice ratio this week. It was dramatically more improved.  It was all ice, minimal drink, which is exactly how I like it. What are we talking about today?
Let me tell you. We’re going to talk about the Eriksson sisters.
Now going into this, I know absolutely nothing.
Okay. Well, I’ve compiled some video for you as well.  This is a wild story. So I’m going to start by telling you…. For our summary today, we’ll do the official story that was released by BBC. It takes place in Britain, but they are Swedish.  And you know what? We have British and Swedish listeners. So shout out to them. 
Yeah, we do.
We have multi-country…
We have international listeners. 
So yeah, I’m going to give you the official story and then we’re going to dig a little deeper.
Okay. I love digging deeper. 
Ursula and Sabina Eriksson are identical twin sisters who were born in Sweden in 1967.  They’re the youngest of four children and had an uneventful, happy childhood without any evidence of mental health issues or substance abuse. Eventually Ursula moves to the United States and Sabina moved to Ireland where she was living with her partner and two children in 2008. On Friday, May 16th, Ursula goes to visit her sister in Ireland.  Overnight, the sisters travel by ferry to Liverpool arriving Saturday morning at 8.30 AM. Three hours later, they board a bus to London. However, the sisters get off of the bus at a service station and begin walking down the M6.  The M6 motorway is the longest motorway in the UK. It’s six lanes wide with a median running down the middle. So three lanes going each direction, one median.  The CCTV camera captures the girls on the median and motorway cops being filmed for a reality show were sent out to check on the girls. The girls were initially calm on the side of the road chatting with cops when suddenly Ursula bolts into the street running into the side of a truck traveling 90 kilometers an hour and crushing her legs.
Oh my god.
While officers tend to Ursula, Sabina bolts into the motorway where she was promptly hit by a car. Oh my god. She remained unconscious for 15 minutes before she woke up combative and fighting with police.  The girls are shouting at each other, I recognize you, you aren’t real and they’re going to steal your organs. What? Sabina again tries to bolt from the officers and was restrained by officers and pedestrians. It took six people and chemical restraints to subdue her.  Both sisters are taken to the hospital for evaluation and treatment. Ursula was taken to surgery and spent months convalescing in the hospital. Toxicology screens were negative for drugs and alcohol.  Sabina, however, is released after evaluation and arrested for trespassing and assault on a police officer. At booking, she denies any medical history, psychiatric history, or suicidal ideations. While there, she is pleasant and joking with the officers.  She states, we say in Sweden that an accident rarely comes alone. Usually at least one follows, maybe two. On May 19th, she pleads guilty to her charges for assaulting the police officer and trespassing on the motorway and is sentenced to one day in jail or time served.
Just one day? 
One day. She’s released from jail and while praying in front of a church, she meets Peter and Glenn. Peter Molloy is 27.  Glenn Hollingshead is 54. So they’re out walking Glenn’s dog after having been at the pub around 9 30 p.m. They run into Sabina who’s looking for a B&B recommendation and she tells them that she’s looking for her sister. As there was nowhere nearby to stay, Glenn, a retired RAF and part-time paramedic, full-time welder, invites her back to his house for the night and promises to help her locate her sister.
I would not go home with a stranger like that. 
Glenn’s friends said this was just normal behavior for him. He was just like a helpful guy.
Okay. 
Peter said that he got a vibe like she was maybe on the run from an abusive ex and seemed paranoid. In fact, at one point while having a few drinks, she offers the men a cigarette from the pack she had been smoking from all night.  But when they put them in their mouth, she starts screaming that they may be poisoned. 
What? 
Peter leaves at about midnight and Glenn assures him that all will be fine. The next day, after reaching out to his brother for help finding Ursula, he goes next door to ask his neighbor for some tea.  Glenn goes back into his house and less than a minute later, he comes out bleeding and saying, ‘she stabbed me. She stabbed me’. What? 
The neighbor calls the cops and Glenn begs him to look after his dog before dying.  Those are his final words. Look after my dog. Sabina is then seen fleeing the scene on CCTV.  She runs for a while before stopping, then hitting herself in the head with a hammer that she had carried out of the home. A pedestrian tries to wrestle the hammer from her for her protection, but she hit him over the head with the roof tile that she had in her pocket and keeps running before leaping off a 40 foot bridge. After suffering a skull fracture and bilateral ankle fractures, she is hospitalized before being released into police custody and charged with the murder of Glenn Hollinshead.
Oh my God. 
In the end, there is no trial. Psychiatrists for both the defense and prosecution agree that she was clinically insane at the time of the crime, but was sane at the time of the trial.  She pleads guilty to manslaughter with diminished responsibility. The defense claims that she had folie a deux. It is French for a madness shared by two.  And it is a rare psychiatric syndrome of shared psychosis between two people, usually related. The lawyers alleged that Ursula was the primary sufferer and Sabina was the sufferer. So when Ursula went to visit Sabina, Ursula was insane.  Them spending time together caused Sabina to become insane. She’s sentenced to five years in prison and apparently in prison, she becomes this like born again Christian. She only served a total of three years and she was released in 2011.  The judge described it as quote, ‘one of the most difficult cases he had ever had to sentence saying, well, the mental illness resolved quickly. Both psychiatrists agree. It was serious.  And that she behaved in the way she did because of her illness. Her culpability for her behavior is on the medical evidence. Accordingly low, she was suffering from delusions, which she believed to be true. And they dictated her behavior. It is also not one of those cases where the defendant could have done something to avoid the onset. It had a sudden onset.  It was a serious illness while it lasted and it resolved rapidly.’ The sisters have since disappeared and nobody is aware of their current whereabouts. There is no record of them ever having committed another crime.
Okay. So I have questions right out of the bat. How old were they again at this time? 
40.
So I do believe like psychotic episodes happen and they can be short term, but I always understood like most psychotic happens, psychotic episodes like that happen during like extremely stressful life events. Like something has to trigger it. And if Ursula was the first crazy one, what was going on with her during this time? 
Yeah.
I don’t buy this. And how long was Ursula crazy for? 
Yeah. I don’t buy the shared madness story.
And like, how did a crazy person travel to, why were they in England? Okay. 
So let me break it down for you. So the deal is that there’s so much footage about this because like I mentioned in that introduction, they were filming this like cops type television show in England.  So there were cameras filming that captured a lot of this. 
Okay. So immediately I have a theory.  The girls knew that the cameras were going to be there and they wanted to be famous in some way. And like, we’re going, you know how like reality people go crazy for the camera. 
They killed someone so they could be on camera?
You’re right. You’re right. You’re right.
That was the overview. 
Right. They’re crazy.
And again, that is like the official BBC story. So BBC actually came out with a documentary about this after it happened. Cause they had so much footage from that television show that they were filming.  I watched that not that long ago, like in the last couple of months. And then I went to watch it again and I couldn’t find it. Cause I think they’re releasing another one.  And maybe that’s why it’s hard to find. But I, you know, did a deep dive down the Reddit rabbit hole on this one. I read the book, I’ve watched all the docs, I’ve listened to the podcasts and I’m going to tell you the more complete story.
Cause there’s gotta be like, this is an onion and we’re peeling back the layers. And again, considering kind of this, how wild this case is and how, how often it’s been covered. There’s really not a lot of information out there about these twins, about their childhood or about what happened to them after.
Which again, I think just makes the whole thing even weirder. Like how do people just disappear? Where did they come from in the first place? It just seems like this documentary and the initial police investigation was just tied up a little too pretty with the bow. Yeah.
I don’t know. I’m now I’m wondering, did the police try to trigger something out of them? So let me just give you, you’re just trying to jump to a lot without all the information. Give me the dirty.
Let me start back at their childhood. 
Okay. Okay.
So again, there’s not a lot of information about their childhood. Okay. But what does exist online is a lot of like, kind of hearsay people who are online who claim that they like, you know, grew up in the same town and that kind of thing.
So you have to sort of take it with a grain of salt. But again, the story you always hear is like, Oh, they had a happy, uneventful childhood. And it sounds like it was maybe not quite so happy and uneventful.
Okay. 
Allegedly, they were reported to be athletic, hyper, perhaps kind of aggressive. There was a report of at least one school fight.  Uh, they were a little odd and often bullied. Sabina was very protective of her sister who was born with a quote, minor injury. There are also multiple sources online who claim that they were born conjoined with Ursula’s nose to Sabina’s lower back.
Was that the lower, the injury, you know what I mean? 
I think that’s the implication, um, but here’s the only proof I could find. So this is this photo from 1977. 
Oh my God.  She looks messed up. 
But then there’s no other photos anywhere of the..
That’s definitely… 
So there’s like this one picture and then it gets even weirder because like, again, I couldn’t find any other photos of Ursula.  So, um, again, Ursula is the one who lives in the United States. Ursula’s went crazy first, allegedly went crazy first. She was hospitalized for much of the, the second part of our story 
With the weird nose…
With the weird nose.
Okay. 
But you can’t find any other photos online of Ursula that are clear enough to see her face. Everything is like kind of a blur or her profile or whatever.  And then somebody did post on Facebook, this high school photo and notice Ursula is out sick on photo day. 
Oh my God. 
Like just one more missed opportunity for any kind of photographic evidence.  We have zero children photos of her for childhood, except for that one photo. 
That is very weird. And I’m sensing mommy issues.  I’m sensing mommy wants her kids to look pretty. 
Okay. 
Like doesn’t let pictures be taken.
I don’t know. 
That’s what I’m sensing. 
Okay.
So again, these two sisters have two older siblings. Mona is the oldest and then the brother Bjorn. 
These names.
And then the two of them are twins. Well, they’re Swedish.
Okay. Oh, I forgot. 
So there’s not much online about Mona, the oldest sister, except that she had a difficult childhood.  And then we know that Bjorn struggled with substance abuse and criminal activity. I did find a video of Bjorn from several years ago, and he was being interviewed by a reporter and he was clearly high and or drunk. And he’s talking about how he was like homeless by choice.  So I would say that they all seem to have a bit of a troubled childhood. 
I was going to say, I feel like BBC cannot say they had a healthy, happy childhood if like their brother’s that fucked up. Like you don’t have somebody in your family that mentally ill unless there’s other core problems.  You know what I mean? 
I wanted to show you, this is him. 
He does not look healthy. 
Okay.
And then you were asking about their parents. 
Yeah. Because I’m sensing they’re messed up.
So I don’t have a ton of information for you about the parents either, but here’s what I do now. 
Okay. 
So their mother was Yvonne Olson.  She was born in 1937. She was not married to the children’s father. The father was Sixten Eriksson.
Okay. 
He was born in 1922. So quite a bit older than their mom.
Grooming? 
At age 18, he lost an arm during the Finnish winter war, and he was known to be an alcoholic. Someone online posted that he would be quote, ‘shitchatting, bullshitting, awfully complaining about the gypsy woman who gave birth to his twins, who was conjoined with the nose to the back and the older boy who was a petty thief.’  So I don’t know. He died in 1989 at age 67 when the girls were 22. 
Okay.  So daddy issues. 
Daddy issues.  
Okay.  But prior to his death, Yvonne and the kids moved to Gothenburg in the early 1980s. And that’s where most of the witness reports come from. These people who were online posting that they knew them and they grew up with them.  It’s from this town. 
So their mom was essentially a single mom for about most of their life?
Correct.  This is a pretty small town. There’s only like 1200 people. And at some point, Yvonne, the mom was living in the women’s housing accommodation, which is a shelter for women who are homeless and or have issues with substance abuse and or interpersonal abuse.
These kids did not have a happy childhood. 
Yeah, definitely. 
I think not quite as pretty as it was painted.
No way. 
Yvonne had an arrest in the nineties for shoplifting. She has since moved out and lives in a nearby Swedish town with a Finnish man who employed Bjorn as a welder at some point.  Does that mean that it’s possible their mother could have potentially had substance abuse or mental health issues? 
A hundred percent. 
Could these kids have been exposed to a toxic environment growing up? Social services reportedly visited their home often and they had goats roaming inside the home. 
Wait, I kind of like this.  I would like that. That’s very Swedish. 
Is it? 
I don’t know.
So Ursula did not complete her schooling and she left the area before Sabina. In the late 1990s, Ursula is living in the United States with a boyfriend and she’s working as a waitress. So based on my internet sleuthing skills….
Yeah, because you’ve, you found them. 
I found them. 
We’ll get to, we’ll get to where they are now.  I’m not going to, we’re not going to reveal, I’m not going to blow them up, blow up their spot. Um, so I’m not going to reveal too much information, but I did find them. 
The information’s out there.  The internet exists, but do your own… 
Yeah. But it does sound like, uh, she lived in Santa Barbara and Sabina’s son, Sabina lives in Ireland, that her son lived with Ursula in Santa Barbara between 2000 and 2006.  And it looks as though Sabina might have resided with them for some period of time, as recently as 2007. Why? Like what was going on with the family dynamic? What was happening? Um, that remains unclear, but this is all contradictory from the publicized story that the sisters had been separated for years. And then suddenly just decided to go on this trip together.
We know they’d at least seen each other. 
They were probably living together prior to that.  But again, why, why the coverup? Why would, why wouldn’t BBC just say that? 
Yeah. 
I don’t know. It also appears that Sabina’s partner was from the United States and grew up in Georgia.  Uh, he was living in Killeen, Texas from 2006, 2008. And we know Simon. So Simon is Sabina’s son that lived with Ursula for a period of time.
We know that Simon spent some time in Killeen. So, but the theory is that Sabina, this partner Sabina has in Ireland that she lives with…
Might not be a good person?
Correct.
She might’ve met him in, in the United States. He appears to have had some kind of, um, history, some kind of history of like domestic abuse or something, some kind of record.  That’s, uh, but again, just like a lot of empty years here. We don’t have a lot of information for. 
Okay.
So then by 2008, Sabina has settled down in Cork County, Ireland. Again, now Simon…
My family’s from Cork.
Oh, they got to get us the scoop.  Okay. So that’s like a little background. And then we know that they get together.  So we know Ursula, uh, flies to Ireland to see Sabina, right? We don’t really know like if this was a spur of the minute trip, if this was a planned trip, what was going on. And the official story was that they left Dublin and traveled to Liverpool via ferry and arrived at 8 30 AM. But nobody has come forward to ever say they witnessed them on this ferry.  We have CCTV all over the place about this case, which actually takes me back to princess Diana that you’re so… 
I was just going to say, why were the cameras off with Diana? But now they’re on? Yeah. Because I think… 
Well, they were in Paris with Diana.
Yeah. But I do think that the CCTV in the United States, when you watch these true crime shows, they’re always out. And I wasn’t that like impressed during Princess Diana’s episode, but I’m like, look at how you have so much CCTV…
Well, I feel like the cameras are always on and running, but they’re choosing what they want to reveal, which I’m wondering if that plays a part with this. 
So there is no CCTV footage of them, um, like getting on or off the ferry. Uh, the other issue with this story is that they reportedly did not have a car in England, but all of the ferries out of Dublin are for vehicles only.  So there’s no pedestrian only ferries. So if they were going to board a ferry without a car, they would have actually had to have traveled to Northern Ireland and gotten what they call a foot passenger ticket, which destroys this whole timeline. So again, more questions is like, why is this official story? Oh, they hopped, they hopped on this ferry from Dublin, got to Liverpool in the morning.
Yeah. I’m so confused. 
But like that story doesn’t track, but what would be the motivation for anyone to lie about that? Right.
I don’t like it. I’m confused. Yeah.
I’m like, why would they lie about that part? Yeah. Why does that part play? Well, just remember that for when we get to the theories next week. Okay.  Okay. So the next incongruency here, the next thing that was not shared, I’m going to reveal to you. So I told you that they get off this ferry and at 8:30 in the morning and three hours later they get on a bus toward London.
Right. 
Okay. There was an extra stop between the ferry and the bus to London.
No. What’d they do? 
When they arrive in Liverpool, their first stop was St. Anne’s police station. 
No.
Where at 8 40 AM, they report that they feared for the safety of Sabina’s children. No. 
So why would you leave your children in Ireland, come to England and be like, I response, like now the UK government has to figure out who to call in Ireland. And then they, yeah, like, no, it doesn’t make any sense. 
So the British police contact the police in Ireland to check on things at 11 AM they call the police at St. Annes and say that they’d gone to the house. They spoke to the partner who said that they had had a fight the night prior regarding money. And he was surprised to hear that she had left the country.  They talked to the kids. Everything seems to be on the up and up and the guard had promised to check on the kids again this weekend and pass it on to social services on Monday. So after this interaction, the St Anne police give the girls the contact information for the police in Ireland and tell them, you know, go home, reach out to them.  They’ll help you. So the twins leave the police station again. This was just like another weird stop that was not initially revealed to us and doesn’t make a ton of sense.
It’s feeling like the girls probably had red flags that the police were not picking up on, like mental illness, red flag. 
Well, and then it becomes weird because later on in the BBC documentary, when everything that happens later happens, they comment like, oh, yeah, I called. It’s like on footage.  This police officer saying, oh, yeah, I called her partner. He had no idea where she was. And you would think if you allegedly had this conversation the morning up.  So do you understand what I’m saying? Yeah. Like later on when they run into the street, like it when they reach out to the partner, he’s like, oh, I don’t know where they were. But here you’re claiming that at eight forty in the morning, some police officer talked to the partner in Ireland who was like shocked to learn that they were in England.  So then why six hours later would you be like, oh, what? I had no idea where they were. 
Yeah, that makes zero sense. So many holes.
OK. So they get on this bus at eleven thirty a.m. and the initial story was that the bus stopped for a driver change at a service station and the girls got off the bus. When you look online, sometimes it says that they asked to get off because they felt sick.  Sometimes they say it was for a driver’s change. We do know this was not a planned stop. And it sounds like I don’t know whether they got off and tried to get back on or what happened, but the driver was really uncomfortable because they were holding onto their bags like for dear life.  And he wanted them to put it in the luggage container underneath the bus, but they didn’t want to separate from their bags and hiding. 
Exactly.
So he was getting nervous.  He was like, is this a bomb or something? So he asked if he could look in the bag and they said no. So he was like, well, then you can’t get back on my bus. So he kicks them off the bus and he tells the manager of the service station, like they’re your problem now.  You figure it out. And he takes off. So now we have these two women hanging out in the just in the bus station and it sounds like the manager watched them for a while and was like, yeah, something is definitely up.  So she calls the cops and she specifically says to them, I think they might have a bomb. Okay. So, so she’s calling this in as like a fear for a bomb threat.
Okay. Oh my God. Uh, so, so you would, I would expect an immediate response.
Yeah. And what else, what kind of response would you expect? 
Like a SWAT team? 
Yeah. So three cops show up, no dogs, no bomb, anything.  These cops don’t even search the bags. They stop and they chit chat with the ladies and then they decide they’re fine. And they said, you know what? We gave her information, gave the girls information on how to get the next bus.  And we left them to it. 
What a threat to society. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Okay. So again, this is when we get into future. And this is 2008.
Yeah. So, okay. Post 9/11.
Yeah. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. I do not like that at all.
They’d given the girls information for the coach company and told them to catch the next bus back to London. But again, they hadn’t come from London. So that’s weird phrasing for me.
Or like, well, the thought is, are there, are the girls lying or the police lying? Are the cops, do the cops know something? 
Again, we’ll get into that with the theories. Um, and then there’s actually like a two hour and 20 minute window between when the cops left them at this bus station.  And the next time we see them on any kind of camera, uh, and we see them walking down the M6. So again, what happened in that two hour and 20 minute window, anyone’s guess. So they were pretty close to the M6, but let me show you like from the bus station.
Yeah. But let me show you some. Okay.
So, okay. So we see these girls walking along the median of the M6 And, uh, again, this is all monitored by CCTV cameras.
So these people are monitoring, they see them and they send some officers to scope things out. And so it sounds like there’s two types of officers there. Then there’s the national highways traffic officers.  That’s who responds first. Okay. They aren’t police officers and they’re like, they don’t ticket people.  They don’t arrest people. Their main function is to keep traffic flowing. And so like if there’s an accident, that’s who comes in, like helps you get off the road and direct traffic.
So when they arrive, the girls are fine. They’re just like chatting on the side of the road with the traffic officers.  They’re smoking some cigarettes. And then meanwhile the next set of police officers show up and these are the motorway cops who are being followed for that reality TV show. And they show up in their bright yellow reflective jackets.  Which remember that because there’s also a theory that they always go crazy when they see bright yellow reflective jackets. So just tuck that away for next week.   Okay, so the video shows the police talking to the sisters on the side of the road.  It looks calm. Sabine is just like chilling with her cigarette and then suddenly Ursula, who is speaking to a cop, just bolts back out into the street. He grabs her coat to restrain her, but she slips out.  She runs into the side of a car that is traveling 90 kilometers per hour or 50 miles per hour. Miraculously, Ursula’s legs are both badly injured, but she is conscious and talking. So everyone is trying to direct traffic and tend to Ursula.  Nobody’s watching Sabine. 
I’m gonna play a clip on this. 
I have a question.
Yeah
So if these traffic people are already here, how come they weren’t like creating a safety diversion for the- Why is the car still able to go that fast if they’re standing on the side of the road? 
I don’t know
But you know what I mean? Like I would have thought they would have shut down a lane. 
I don’t know. 
Anyways, not a traffic control person, but okay, keep telling me more.
Sabina then immediately sprints into the motorway where she’s promptly hit by a car. Now when she’s hit by this car, she’s flung into the windshield, shattering it, dents the vehicle. So it’s like a legitimate hit.
I can’t. 
This was a legit car strike. Sabine is unconscious for 15 minutes.  While Sabine is unconscious, Ursula starts freaking out, spitting, biting, clawing, screaming, fighting. She starts screaming at the police. I recognize you.  I know you’re not real. 15 minutes later, Sabine comes to and tries to stand up, but the police attempt to restrain her. She begins screaming to her sister.  They’re going to steal your organs. Sabine pops up to her feet and sprints back into the motorway. She punches a cop, jumps the median before running across the other side of the motorway.  It takes six of them, including some civilians who had pulled over to help, to carry her back to the ambulance. The woman had to be sedated to be treated and there’s footage of them discussing, talking to Sabine’s partner, again, who I mentioned, said he didn’t know where they were. Okay, so in the hospital now, Ursula has a toxicology screen, which is negative for drugs or alcohol, because I’m gonna be honest, the first thing I see from that… 
She’s crazy.
Well, I think substance abuse, because that’s like… 
Yeah, like they’re on crack or something. 
When you have this, you know, like in the K-hole or something, and when you have this like super strength and nothing can keep you down and you feel no pain, but I think also, I guess what’s interesting is that Ursula had a tox screen that was negative. I guess I would like to know what was actually screened for and some of these like synthetic drugs, right? 
Don’t pop up. 
Correct. 
But interestingly, Sabina did not have a tox screen. 
The girl who needed six people to be held down? Mm-hmm.
They didn’t run tox… 
But she couldn’t consent to it, is what I read online. But how could Ursula… 
Ursula was critically ill, and so it didn’t matter. 
But Sabine is freaking crazy, so that shouldn’t have mattered either.
I don’t know. So, Ursula has shattered both of her legs, so she spends months in the hospital, and that’s kind of the end of her part. 
We don’t find out about her being crazy… 
Of the story.
Again. So I’m really just intrigued. So Ursula has been in the hospital this whole time and doesn’t have any… 
We don’t know anything else about her after that.
Yeah, except what I learned. 
God. 
Which I’ll get to later.
But pretty much her part of the story is gone now. Ursula’s hospitalized. Sabina is treated, and then miraculously… 
This also surprised me.  I know concussions don’t necessarily recommend admissions anymore for monitoring, but I would think a head trauma, loss of consciousness… 
They didn’t admit her? 
No. She was seen in the ER and then discharged. I’m sure they did some scans.  I would think epidural bleed, when you have loss of consciousness followed by waking back up. But just like… 
She tried to off herself.  That, to me, is like a 72-hour hold.
We’ll talk about that. So she spends five hours in the ER and then is released to police custody for assault on the police officers. Again, she reportedly declined to talk screen, and she did not get a psych eval.  Now, in their defense… 
Not even a psych eval? 
In their defense, they did not have those videos that we have, right? To see how ridiculous it is. 
The doctors didn’t. 
Correct.
But they had the police officers… 
Yeah. 
Telling the story. And they still did.
Talking about how they were running into oncoming traffic. That sounds like suicidal ideations to me. 
That’s crazy.
Yeah. So no psych eval. 
Sabina’s not even admitted.
No. So Sabina spends five hours in the ER. She gets discharged to police custody.  The police say she’s so pleasant, they don’t even restrain her for her ride to the police station. She’s actually flirtatious with the officers. 
That’s also a sign of psychosis, though.
Interestingly enough, also, Sabina never once asked after her sister in the hospital.
Oh. 
And so you would think, you know, for two sisters who were supposedly, like, attached to the hip, wouldn’t she be concerned about, like, how’s my sister? And, yeah, they claim that… So when she went to the police station to get booked, and they asked her, like, do you have any past medical history? She says no.  They said, do you have any psychiatric history? She says no. Have you ever had any kind of thoughts of suicide or attempted suicide? She says no. Which, I mean, she just attempted suicide.
Can you trust anything she’s saying? 
No, but their argument then is, like, well, she didn’t meet criteria for psych eval because she answered no to all those questions. But, like, she was literally trotting in front of oncoming traffic. 
What is the mental health education in England at this time? You know what I mean? Like, is there any, like, psych training whatsoever? Because it’s sounding like it’s a lack of skills on their part more than it is anything.
Or is it all part of a cover-up? 
Oh, God. 
So then you mentioned a 72-hour psych hold, right? 
Okay, let me go back. 
So she didn’t meet criteria for a psych eval.  So two days later, on May 19th, she pleads guilty to her charges for assaulting the police officer and trespassing on the motorway. And she’s found guilty. She’s supposed to serve a day.  She’s already served two days, so she gets released. So what is interesting, though, is that the initial footage that was released, this BBC documentary, cut a section out. And then this cut section got released years later.  And in it, they show two police officers talking about what’s happening while they’re running into the traffic and everything, okay? And one says, is she under arrest? And the other says, well, she’ll be a 136. And 136 is like a 72-hour psych hold. So meaning that when she’s arrested, she was supposed to be put on a psychiatric hold.
And they didn’t do that? 
But they didn’t do that. 
Why? 
Well, I don’t know. That’s the question.  But you can at least say, well, it sounds like the conversation being had is if she gets arrested, it’s going to be a 136. So yeah, why did all of that just get ignored? And then they wanted to protect themselves, so they cut it out of the footage that they then released. 
And they’re trying to blame it on the doctors.  It’s what it kind of like. 
Or they’re, I don’t know. I don’t know who they’re trying to blame.
I don’t know what they’re trying to cover up. But like, these poor women. 
So she leaves the police station with her clear plastic bag of belongings and walks off to find her sister in some hospital in this country she doesn’t live in, is unfamiliar with, okay? 
Oh, my God.
And she meets two men, Peter Malloy and Glenn Hollinshead. 
Okay. So I mentioned that they had been to the pub and they were out walking Glenn’s dog.  Now, remember, Peter claims that they got to the pub around 5 p.m. and then met Sabina sometime between 5.30 and 7.30. His story has changed. But they claim that she stopped to pet the dog. Like, she was across the street.  She was like, what a beautiful dog. She crosses the street. She pets the dog.  And she tells him, I’m looking for my sister. Are there any B&Bs around here? And apparently, this is, like, a pretty sketchy town. 
Oh, God.
And Glenn was like, there’s nothing like that around here. And there’s nowhere for you to stay. Just come to my house.  Spend the night. I’ll help you find your sister. 
Oh, no, that poor man.  He does not know what he’s getting roped into. 
But, again, there’s, like, a lot of back and forth as far as this, like, window and what happened. Because there’s also some theories out there that maybe Glenn and Sabina had actually met before.  And this was all kind of staged. Because she was found guilty to time served. And then she just hung out in the courthouse until it closed at 4 p.m. Because she had nowhere to go.
Right. 
And that Mike, a local pub owner, claimed that Glenn had told him he was meeting some woman by the church at 4.35. So it just seemed like – and he, like, left to go meet this person. And then a couple hours later, when Glenn’s with Peter, he pretends like they just met.  So there’s some theories that, like, they had met before and that was all some kind of cover up. 
That’s very interesting. So they meet.
Glenn says, like, you know, there’s really nowhere around here. So just come home with me. So they go back to Glenn’s house.  They have a few drinks. Peter claims that he carries her clear plastic belonging bag back from the jail. And in it he saw a wad of cash estimated to be about a thousand euro, a laptop, and three cell phones.
Three cell phones. 
Three cell phones. 
That’s suspicious.Yeah. So Peter is creeped out by her odd behavior, but Glenn kept telling him, like, it’s all good. It’s fine.  It’s going to be fine. Don’t worry about it. 
It’s not fine.
There is no evidence they had any kind of relations. 
Yeah. 
This was all very innocent on the up and up, allegedly.  So at some point Peter goes back to his house. There’s, like, a five-minute walk for more beers. And Glenn makes them all sandwiches.  The three are sitting around. They’re having a few drinks. They’re smoking some cigarettes.  They just said she was having, like, some really weird behavior swings. Like, at some time she would appear paranoid. She’d be, like, up at the window looking out the blinds.  And then she’d be, like, totally normal. So Peter leaves at about 11.40 p.m. And then she and Glenn go to sleep. And then there’s, like, 17 unaccounted for hours.  We don’t know what happened. We do know that Glenn called his brother at 12.30 the next afternoon. His brother worked at a hospital, and he was, like, I’m trying to help this girl find her sister, Ursula.  So there was some kind of contact made there. And Paul is his brother who’s now very involved in the investigation. And he thinks there’s more to the story.
Oh, God. 
But he offers to – Paul offers to pick him up and drive him around to see her. But apparently Sabina was, like, I’m just too tired.  Let’s just do it later. So this can all be confirmed via telephone records that this all happened. 
Okay.
And then other than two other calls from his mom and his brother that day, the only call received was from an unknown number. Then at 7.30 p.m. he goes next door to ask his neighbor for some tea, goes back to his house. And less than a minute later he comes stumbling out of the house yelling, ‘she stabbed me, she stabbed me.’  Note that he said, she stabbed me, not they stabbed me. Because there’s a theory that, like – They’re, like 
That maybe there was someone else – 
Yeah. He had four stab wounds, one in the neck, one in the heart, and two in the upper abdomen.
Oh, she was going to kill. 
The neighbor calls the cops, and Glenn begs him to look after his dog. And that just gives me all the feels.  It’s like his last – 
I think he was innocent. 
Oh. He was stabbed through the left ventricle of his heart and through the lung, so he died within minutes.
Yeah. 
So the – I’m coming back from that. So when people say, like, oh, he said, she stabbed me, she stabbed me, like, was that really clear? Was it gurgly if he had, you know – 
Yeah, he would have been like – I could see that.
So the neighbor calls 999, which is like 911 there. It took 25 minutes to get there. Should have taken less than 10.  One minute before their arrival, they get multiple calls about a woman hitting herself with a hammer or mallet on the street. 
She’s just running? This girl’s nuts. 
And so she’s just, like, running.  She’ll stop. She’ll hit herself in the head with this mallet or this hammer, run a little bit further. And a pedestrian sees her, and he’s trying to help her, so he stops to try to wrestle a hammer from her.  But she kept screaming. She hits him over the head with the roof tile that she had in her pocket, and he loses consciousness, and he keeps running. She then leaps off this bridge and jumps off it into the motorway.  They did say it was 12 meters or 40 foot high, but now sources say it’s probably more like 25 feet high. So not quite as aggressive, but still. And then this is where she ends up with her broken legs and a skull fracture.  She’s hospitalized until June 6, 2008, and is taken into police custody and charged with the murder of Glenn Hollingshead. 
This is just a crazy story. 
Now, in the meantime, Peter, who had left his friend with a random girl, he had not reached out to Glenn again for 33 hours.  So he claims he had no idea that any of this had happened. The next day, he just stumbles upon several items strewn about the neighborhood that he recognized from that clear bag he carried for Sabina. 
Oh, no. 
And he talks about how he, like, wiped the laptop down because he touched it the day prior. And he didn’t – when Sabina wanted him to see some family pictures, he didn’t want anyone to think he was involved in a theft. 
This all sounds very sketchy.
Yeah. Also, Glenn’s family were never notified by the police. His brother discovered his death 24 hours later when he saw it on a newspaper.  So, again, later that week, Peter claims he found strewn items of hers, including her sweater, CDs, and cigarettes, around the neighborhood. Meanwhile, Sabina’s arrested. And everything that – every question the police ask her, she just says – 
I don’t know.
No comment. No comment. She never gave any explanation.
Oh, my God. 
Now, review of the autopsy reports give the impression that two separate knives were used to kill Glenn. 
Oh, so there was a second – 
Well, we don’t – I mean, the official story is that she acted alone, right? 
Ooh.
But – Well, she could have grabbed the second knife. 
But this book – this book that’s, uh, uh, about the sources. But this is also one that Paul has helped to write.  He’s pretty invested in it. 
Paul’s the brother. 
Paul’s the brother.
Yeah. 
They claim that there were two separate knives. And I will also pop up here the image for the viewers to see.
The wounds? 
No, it’s just, like, the dimensions of the wounds versus the dimensions of the knives. 
Okay. So there were two separate knives used to kill Glenn is one of the theory, but they only discovered one.  Sabina’s DNA profile was on the kitchen knife, and Glenn’s blood was on her jacket. Also, they – look, there’s this picture of her in high school. What hand is she writing with there? 
Left.  Left. For the record, left. Yes.
Well, if you look at his wounds, his wounds are more consistent with a right-handed assailant. 
Oh. To comment on that, um, there is such thing as, like, mirror twins.  Have you heard of that before? They’re, like, identical twins, but they’re, like, a mirror of each other. And, like, some of them can be lefty, the other one’s righty. Like, I’m wondering maybe – 
I mean, or she could be ambidextrous.
She could be ambidextrous, yeah. All we’re going off here is, like, unpredictable photo, but this is what the writers of the – 
She was pretty. I’ll give her that.  Crazy but pretty. 
The coroner’s report did not include a toxicology report.
Not once did they test her blood. 
Well, now we’re talking about the victim. 
Oh, okay, right, right, right, right.
Because there’s some theories that he maybe had a history with some 
– Oh, maybe they were doping up together. And maybe that’s how he knew her. 
There’s this whole theory that she could have been a drug dealer.
Oh. 
But there was never any kind of toxicology report done on him. 
Oh, my God.
In fact, the pathologist who did this autopsy has had a couple of kind of public disgraces, like weaknesses found in his previous autopsies. 
Do not – I thought autopsies would have included a tox screen. 
I would think that every – Yeah.
I would include that, yeah. More recent reviews indicate that a separate pathologist assessed the body on behalf of the defense and could not rule out the possibility of two separate weapons. Also, they noted a lack of defensive wounds on Glenn’s body, which indicated that perhaps there was one person holding him back while the other was attacking him.
Question. Did we ever find the knives? 
We found one knife. Okay, but two wounds.
They’re claiming that it was two – he needed two different knives. There could be another knife somewhere. And then the book…
Please Megan, what was the title so that we can put it on our Amazon list for the viewers? 
A Madness Shared by Two.
Oh, that’s a good title. 
Yeah. So in A Madness Shared by Two, they also argue that all of these people, the defense, the prosecution, the medical examiner, they all work in the same small office.
Oh, so they all protect each other. 
So you could pretty easily finagle a cover-up.
Kind of like they were all Freemasons and they always protect a fellow Mason.
Just like that. 
Interesting.  
Psychiatrists for both the defense and prosecution agreed that she was clinically insane at the time of the crime but was sane at the time of the trial, as I mentioned.  She pleads guilty to manslaughter with diminished responsibility. And the defense claims that this was all because of folie a deux. I don’t know, I just can’t do French.  Folie a deux. 
Sounds like steak for two. Folie a deux.
Folie a deux. 
I can speak in Spanish, I can’t speak in French. 
The defense claims – so they both thought she was crazy.
The defense is the side that came up with this folie a deux theory. Is it a legitimate – Yeah, so I’m going to tell you about it. I don’t know how legitimate it is.
Wow. 
It’s incredibly rare. It’s French for madness shared by two.  It’s incredibly rare. There’s like five cases of it out there. And again, it’s this rare psychiatric syndrome of shared psychosis between two people.  These people are usually related. The lawyers allege that Ursula was the primary sufferer and Sabina was the secondary sufferer. So when Ursula went to visit Sabina, Ursula was insane.  They spent time together. Sabina becomes insane. And then, as I mentioned, she serves her time and she’s released in 2011.
So as far as like – is this a legit – 
Yeah. 
So there’s this quote, Professor Nigel Eastman, professor of law and psychiatry. He was in the original BBC documentary.  He says, ‘identical twins often have very close relationships. Psychologically, there’s a lot of blurring of the boundary of who is who. And because they’re genetically identical, they would have similar genetic loading.’  So meaning like if one’s predisposed for a psychiatric issue – 
They both would be. 
They probably both would be. 
I mean, I totally get that.
That makes so much sense. 
And so the theory is like he says Ursula is still in Sabina’s mind even though she’s physically separated from her. 
This is all very creepy to me, especially if you think about if they truly were born conjoined.
I was going to say – 
I don’t know if I believe, but – 
I mean, I kind of believe that. Ursula’s face looks weird..
That’s one picture. Also, I’m thinking about conjoined twins. I mean, they were identical.
You can be conjoined at any point. 
Can you? 
Yeah. 
Because I just picture it being like they split and then it’s always like they don’t finish splitting.
But it’s not always down the middle or at one side. But it’s like down the back. I could totally see that.
Okay. 
I know nothing about conjoined twins. Experts, let us know.
I could totally see that. Psychosis. So here are kind of some things against it.
So again, it’s incredibly rare. Usually this is seen in people who are isolated together. So like – Like living in the middle of nowhere 24-7.
Yeah, there was a documentary. I’d go crazy. There was a clip about like a father and a son.
And so it was like the father had the delusions, but they were living in this cabin. That’s the two of them. And so the son develops the delusions because it’s just like you’re around it 24-7.
Yeah. So there’s not really – or there’s also instances where it’s like both of them are sociopaths maybe. And so when they come together, they feed off of that.  But there’s not – again, it’s like not very common. And it certainly doesn’t seem to lay out with like their presentation of like not even living together. They just get together and suddenly – 
Yeah, they just suddenly were crazy within a 24-hour period.
Yeah. Psychosis usually comes on more gradually and disappears more gradually. It’s not such like a sudden onset, sudden ending like this.  Again, more common when people are isolated together for years. The few cases that have occurred have been two people who already have homicidal intentions, and then they get together. But again, there’s no previous history of criminality for either of these.  I did reach out to my friend, Dr. Emilie. Okay. This is kind of her area of specialty.  She says this is not a DSM diagnosis.  No. Well, DSM also like within the last 10 years only just took off being, she’s a homosexual. 
Yeah.
So like – I mean, I guess what she’s saying, it’s kind of a hot topic right now because the thought is when you look at January 6th. 
Yeah.
Is there a component of this? Like can you – can sane people be spurred on by other people’s delusions? 
I think yes.
They have an underlying psychosis as well. So pretty much she was like, I don’t know about the shared psychosis. I don’t – I have a really hard time believing that.  But I can see someone with mental illness and delusions potentially causing that in another person. Does that make sense? 
No, I agree with what she’s saying.
So again, she’s like maybe it’d be more likely you have two folks who are predisposed to a mental health issue.  Maybe they had mental health issues in their family. Maybe they had a rough childhood. 
Which these two women definitely did.
Maybe one has a break. That circumstance and their behavior is sufficient stressor to trigger a break in the other. But – and she also said 40 is like really old.
If you were going to – she thought if this – not really. 
No, but this happens more in your 20s. 
Yeah.
Like college age. 
Yeah. Because they – that’s like most people who have like psychotic breakdowns are like 18 to 25 or something.
That’s not 100 percent, but that younger age group. Yeah. That’s why I asked earlier.  Because it would be weird for like, yeah, two 40-year-old women who haven’t seen each other to get together and then just be like, oh, yeah, I did it because she’s crazy. That’s what now I’m suddenly – I’m like they’re definitely on a new kind of drug then. The psychiatrist argued that Ursula was the dominating personality and Sabina was easily manipulated.
Manipulated? I mean that’s again – That’s a thing with twins.
Yeah. That’s how this whole story is being told, right? That Ursula had the dominating personality.  Yeah. Sabina was easily manipulated. So if Ursula’s crazy, Sabina’s going to be easily manipulated.
Yeah. 
But that wasn’t actually their dynamic. Like people who grew up with them said it was the opposite because, again, Ursula had some kind of medical issue.
Yeah. 
And the theory is potentially she was separated from her sister and she’s the one who missed a lot of school. And Sabina was really like the controlling one who was always looking out for her.
Oh. 
So it’s a role reversal compared to like what the defense is arguing. 
This is confusing me.  Like I’m not confused with what you’re saying. I’m confused with my – yeah. I’m like what could be going on? 
What became of the twins? They really did seem to vanish off the face of the earth.  And their friends and family have stayed relatively quiet. There were rumors that they were maybe in witness protection. Oh, that’s what I was thinking.  But don’t worry, guys. 
You found them. 
I found them.
I thought you found one. Did you find both? 
So we know Ursula returned to the United States and she changed her name.  
I would too. 
It’s pretty similar to her current name. 
Off the record.  What is it? That’s so stupid.
Okay. So Ursula changes her name.
She’s got a partner. And in general, all the sources say that nobody knows what became of them. We do know that in 2012, Ursula was living in Bellevue, Washington, which we mentioned that in a previous episode.b
And she’s very into the church. So this was a picture posted of her in her church. But you can’t really see her face.  And the church then kind of scrubbed her from… She was posted all over. And then the church scrubbed her from their website to help protect her because she’s trying to… 
I mean, that’s kind of nice. I mean, good for her for trying to get her life back together.
But… 
And that’s nice of the church to protect her for that. 
So now you want to know about Sabina? I did find Sabina on Facebook. 
Yeah.
What’d you think? 
I thought she looked like a real housewife. Like the picture you sent me looked like one of their jail photos. Who’s the one that does singing but is horrible? \
That’s like every housewife.
Oh, my God. She’s a New York one. 
Oh, Luann? 
Yeah, she looked like Luann to me.
Okay. Did you not see that at all? Oh, okay. Megan’s like, no.
That’s okay. So she has a job. She’s working in a job that I’m surprised you can do with a criminal record.
Oh, my God. 
So she has a job that I’m surprised… Are you surprised you could do that? 
Yes, I’m very surprised. I’m surprised by the job she has.
With her record. 
Her record. 
Yeah.
Oh, my God. She spends some time in Ireland, some time in Norway. Looks like she’s kind of settled in Sweden now.  She’s also spent a lot of time in the U.S., which again has me thinking…
But do you think it went down the way they represented it – that it was Ursula controlling  Sabina and Ursula had a break and it caused Sabina to have a break? Like I could see that, too. I could understand – I believe them all at once. 
Of course you do
I don’t know…   I need to hear more about the mind control because like is it proven that every time I saw yellow they went nuts?  Like I need to hear more about that. 
Yeah, I don’t know if that’s proven proven, but when you look back at every time she’s calm and it was like it gets fired up 
Yeah
It’s like she gets fired up when she sees bright colors 
Okay. 
Well you guys If you liked this episode, I’m gonna just step in for Kait –
Oh, yeah one
And ask you to scroll on down.  Give us a review, a like, a follow. 
She’s always like this okay, sosScroll on down and give us a review of what you think.  Send us an email.  You know give us some suggestions.  Spot-on, right? I’m doing a good impersonation. 
That was pretty good.  
Yeah, and we will try to get clips from Kaie as she’s on top of the mountain.  The sound quality might be a little weird but we’ll we’ll holler back and hopefully she gets some footage of a Yeti for us or Bigfoot or mega shark or Titanic or Tupac maybe she’s just out there in the universe for us. 
Yeah All right. We’ll see you guys next week.
See you next Tuesday